Dear Rep. F. James Sensenbrenner.

I fully understand and respect your "opinion" on the subject, but with all do respect, here is my "opinion.”

It’s not “Amnesty” as you have put it, there not actually becoming citizens. If you have a heart at all, which I’m sure you do, you have to feel for these people. It’s not there fault! We are talking about smart dedicated youth here that just want to live out their dreams, they are proud, and want to make a positive impact on our community.

As far as working, let me let you in on a little secret. They are working already under the table. I’m not a genius, I myself am very young only 24 years old, but it would seem that if they are already working, and now we can tax them on their wages, that helps us out seeing the economic climate of the USA. Your next comment would be, yeah but they are talking Americans Jobs. The truth once again, is that they are doing jobs that Americans are “to good for” the small and insignificant jobs. Or the jobs that our lazy coach potato Americans have no motivation to go and pursue.

I think that Obama is a very smart president for making this move, and If I could meet him, I would say thank you for making America such a wonderful place to live. I know many people who would vote for him again, and not for people who have no heart.

I agree with Congressman Sensenbrenner. It's all or nothing. Politicians have been pootsie footing around this issue, trying to squeeze out as many of the hispanic votes as that they possibly can, and that is why we have so many illegal immigrants from the country of Mexico in particular. The law is the law. Period. Follow it. Enforce it. That is how the problem goes away. Other countries do not need walls. They enforce their laws!!! That is what makes it darn hard to survive in a country without the proof of legal citizenship! Our country's founders must be rolling in their graves, because we have allowed greed to overpower the smart and common sensical laws that made this country great once. No Amnesty for law breakers.

If you want to see your taxation forever rising, then you can sit in your chair and do nothing. Just watch your country as politicians accommodate millions of poor from other countries, subsidized by your money. The TEA PARTY has become a colossal grassroots movement of tens of millions of moderate Americans from all racial and religious backgrounds, political parties, no matter what the undesirable advocacy groups say? The TEA PARTY members share the focused values of restricted government, individual freedoms, personal responsibility, "fair" free markets and above all else returning control to the States and the people. For decades we have had a corrupt Taxation system, that must be rescinded and a flat tax imposed.

The tax system was constructed by Attorney-legislators, who have built into the code, incentives, and subsidies and with 57 percent of the American people paying nothing. We need a tax code so everybody pays something, to save our country from bankruptcy. The TEA PARTY is about reforming all political parties and the control, so the key ideology of our Constitution, once again is the true foundation of which this nation is built. The TEA PARTY will have a zero -leniency policy on any kind of Amnesty, Sanctuary cities and States, Dream Acts or anything that supports further incursions of this affliction. The TEA PARTY is the ordinary people of these United States and is ready to expose the corruption in Washington and individual State.

Your vote counts and millions have joined the TEA PARTY to stop the extortion from the American people of their taxes. The Obama stimulus gave billions to banks, foreign and domestic with the assurance they would lend to small businesses which are the backbone of America and the job producers. Instead the banks invested the taxpayer’s money in money market accounts. None of these positive solutions happened and twenty million Americans are out of a full time job, while 8 million illegal aliens have been hired. Call your Senator or Congress person and complain, as you are the voter and have the power to throw them out of office. In this crushing recession we must ensnare every economic illegal alien and remove them forthwith.

ATTN: Illegal aliens do vote and it’s up to the American people to bring this to the attention of their state lawmakers. Discover more about Voter Fraud, by typing these words into Google. Also find out where your dollars are going, when they are pandered to illegal aliens by the federal government and the 50 states. NumbersUSA, Federation of American Immigration Reform. Learn the lies on immigration, along with a listing of 2008 Most Corrupted Politicians at Judicial Watch.

Rep. Lama Smith said that Pres. Obama is trying to make up for not trying to move an amnesty bill through Congress, when Democrats controlled both chambers of Congress. President Obama for a time for decades was deporting hundreds of thousands of unlawful foreigners, and then changed his mind under the pressure of activists. Now Obama believes in a super-powerful, centralized administration and that is what he perceives; whether or not Congress goes along--and whether or not the American people go along. ..? That’s all very well, if you don’t live in a democracy. It’s not agreeable in the United States of America, where he has taken an oath to uphold the U.S. Constitution and the “Rule of law” and not just to single out and select which laws to enforce. He needs, as president of the United States, to make sure all laws are faithfully executed and that is really bothersome."

Rep. Smith said Congress has two options to stop the new policy. It can hold oversight hearings or defund the agencies, but he said the best clarification is to elect a president that won't provide amnesty through executive actions, again the People’s wishes.

For the people who live in this nation lawfully, the question to ask is why is this civil offense and not a FELONY? Obviously this was intentional to mislead the naive general public. A subterfuge to reflect for thirty years, our laws were being enforced? Now we have to deal with 20 million plus foreigners without documentation, and although this has been a clever game played by every administration, the NEW TEA PARTY will enforce the 1986 Immigration laws. Then every politician, governor, mayor, judge, police chief will be evicted from office, which are favorable the economical nightmare caused by this illegal alien occupation.

The TEA PARTY selected is the only politicians who will fully enforce the 1986 Simpson/Mazzoli bill.

The U.S. House of Representatives has to act immediately when it returns in September to send the world a reason to follow the law. The courageous and most authoritative signal it can launch, is to pass a nationwide mandatory E-Verify bill that not only stops illegal aliens from getting jobs, but forces business owners to fire the illegal aliens already working for them.

Of course the open border zealots, the Catholic Church, religious faith groups, business lobbyists and others, want to disrupt the "Secure Communities and E-Verify policies, as this epidemic called illegal immigration cannot skirt around these enforcement innovations. If you contravene the law and get caught; your fingerprints are run through the FBI, ICE and Homeland Security data bases. Once you’re detained the state and local police obtain your prints and then if verified, ICE agents arrive to put a hold on you. As far as the majority of American citizens and residents, you’re a criminal when you entered this sovereign land of the United States; this is whether you dodged the border patrol or over stayed your welcome on a visitor’s visa. Your illegal, and should you be caught in the laws net, you should be arrested and consequently deported.

I have an illeagal immigrant as my significant other. He is now in a detention center for illegal immigrants. He is the most hardworking man i have ever met, he uses his real name not an alias. He also does not get paid under the table as well as pays his taxes every year like an American citizen should. He also has a child that he pays child support for. Many citizens do NOT pay their taxes OR child support. He has worked many labor inducing jobs, and i know that i would never work in the fields. Many Americans are lazy and rely on welfare, i have seen people sell food stamps for drugs or money, to support themselves or their habbits. Im not saying ALL immigrants should stay in America, but the ones who contribute to society should be given leniency. Make them show proof and instead of giving them a tax return, the government should figure some way to "hold" it and the immigrant can use it towards fees to become an American citizen. Just a thought...

Illegal aliens are destroying this Country, and one would have to be almost blind not to see this. How much longer do we have to support these illegal aliens? How much longer do we have to school their illegal alien children? How much longer are we going to let them have our jobs? How much longer are we going to put up with all the crime, stolen identities, forged documents, fake green cards? How much longer are we going to allow these illegal aliens to send money out of this Country and bring our Country down? Oh, amnesty will correct all this. WRONG! Nothing will change except we wouldn't be able to call them illegal aliens any more. Let's get rid of these illegal aliens! Let's get them back to their own Country where they belong!

Illegal immigration is a cancer, it has to be eradicated not tolerated.

"Sensenbrenner was born in Chicago, Illinois, into a wealthy family. He was raised in Shorewood, Wisconsin, and attended the private Milwaukee Country Day School, from which he graduated in 1961."-wiki

Ah, to be born rich in the U S of A

Perhaps from a bankster's family?

"There is nothing more unequal, than the equal treatment of unequal people."
Thomas Jefferson

@ Mr. Scott ffolliott.... Sooooooooooo are you against the man or his opinion on illegal immigration? :)

Man what a great couple of weeks it has been. Stayed off the site and smiled almost the whole time, then i come back and see that our buddy Lyle still has his keyboard.

'If we were truly committed to controlling illegal aliens we would put effort into policing employers who employ them.' Really Lyle, I would kinda think if we were 'truly committed to controlling illegal aliens' we could put up a big fence, have some guys with bullets guarding that fence and a conveyor belt to send the bodies back. Oh wait, that is what most of us want, but we have some folks out there that would rather set up a new government agency to go after businesses that hire them. Makes a ton of sense to me! What part of illegal do you not understand Lyle?!

Your 'clear vision' scares the Hell out of me. 'Clearly we are in the economic straits that we are in because of the unholy partnership between business and corrupt government legislators.' Nice try, there is not enough corrupt businesses and legislators to even touch the amount of corruption in the handouts given to the wrong people through SS, Welfare and other agencies and you know it. Throw in non tax paying illegals and we would have one high hill of money we could be sitting on.

@Craig... I agree, we are both young, he is only 25. We wanted to get married, but the right way... We were looking for him to become leagal before marriage. We were trying to save money to get a lawyer and go through the system. I hope that he is one that will released. But, yes, something should be done about the ones that cross over and do nothing with their lives or for society as a whole.

people discussing immigration problem here think that there is a line for getting straight with immigration..myth one(Courtsey Speaker Gingich there is no such line)...illegal immigration is only from mexico or latin america....myth no two.actually it is only 60%.....they are uneducated....myth no. three, actually majority of them speak good English(Better percentage than so called legal immigrants come through family immigration) and fourty % have college degree from USA or outside....they all did not cross borders....myth no. four, majority are stuck in the disfunctional/impractical/tardy/brutal immigration system and they have american born children/houses/businesses and they just cant leave..we will have more houses in the market .....Rep. sensenberener is just looking after his own interests not of the countrymen. By exploiting instead finding solution of this problem we are loosing economically( already happening) and ruin our political standing in the world specially in muslim/hispanic countries.We need to find a way out of this mess which we have created (both rep and dem) over the years and people should force them to find one.Just be aware of the facts and be smart and conscience...peace to all

It seems there are a few followers of the Tea Party Cult. I am from Wisconsin, so I have to apologize for Representative Sensenbrenner. He always brings up issues that have nothing to do with the problems we are facing now. There was a conservative president we had a while back that was responsible for a little thing that was called the Great Depression. Luckily for us there was a Democratic President that took over and helped to get us out of that mess. Well the same thing happened again. George W. deregulated the financial industry and implemented tax cuts which of course got us in the mess we are in now. This immigrant problem has nothing to do with our economic problems. We need to do what was done in the 40's. We need to create infrastructure again as the WPA and other programs did. We need new roads and bridges for example. We need to put Americans back to work and cutting taxes for corporations and the rich is not going to create new jobs. The "Job Creators" as the conservatives call them have never created jobs. Trickle down economics has not and never will create one new job. So instead of worrying about a few hundred thousand aliens stealing your jobs, write your representatives and have them get us out of the two wars Bush started. Have them stop the Bush tax cuts. Have them make the richest 1% and corporations pay their fair share, and have them stop signing pledges to show how religious they are.

When did we lose our common sense? Our Government, has allowed the invasion of 30 million criminals in direct violation of Article IV, Section IV of our Constitution. they force American tax payers to pay Billions to provide Welfare, Prison cells, Educate the invaders children, free medical care,massive document fraud, & are destroying our schools, hospitals, communities, culture while Robbing, Raping, Killing & Assaulting American Citizens WE ARE BEING INVADED! WAKE UP PEOPLE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NVT7lyNRZQ&feature=player_embedded
.youtube.com/watch?v=tsH8xvjTAlo
.youtube.com/watch?v=Btj6IeOFkis&feature=player_embedded
http://immigrationcounters.com/
.ojjpac.org/memorial.asp
.immigrationshumancost.org/
.newswithviews.com/Wooldridge/frosty580.htm
.youtube.com/watch?v=muw22wTePqQ
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/02/immigration-costs-fair-amnesty-educations-costs-reform/
http://www.rense.com/general81/dtli.htm
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=41045
http://www.cairco.org/econ/econ.html
http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/003335.html
Every Non-representative including obama and holder are not upholding the oath of office! they swore to defend the Constitution! If these clowns were to do their job, this would all be a Moot point!
Anchors and their criminal parents go, period, you knew you were breaking the law when you crossed the border.

Next shut down any business hiring illegal labor. Oh and owners go to jail.
Got a better idea? Lets hear it!

here is a letter published in the milwaukee Journal Sentinel on May 1 from last year

Immigration reform could be a win-win

It is a fact that there are 12 million to 15 million people residing in the United States without legal status. Illegal immigrants make up a disproportionately small population in our prisons.
In our Milwaukee community, there are families in which some members hold valid citizenship while others do not. Deportation leaves many families torn apart, forcing large numbers of U.S. citizens to be placed in foster homes, while disrupting families can lead to long-term problems.

The Internal Revenue Service had been granting tax ID numbers to those with illegal
residency, and those working under a false number have payroll deducted yet receive no refunds. Billions in tax revenue come from those with illegal status.
The majority of illegal workers from Mexico are under the age of 35, while the average American worker is aging, putting a strain on our Social Security system.

These circumstances are ripe for a win-win design for immigration reform, too often eclipsed with raw emotions and false promises.

immigrants pay taxes too.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm

Its a shame Sensenbrenner is not more grateful to illegal immigrants who subsidize the tax bill.

Its a shame Sensenbrenner wishes to build a war bigger than the Berlin wall rather than forming sound policy putting america first

There are many americans born here who should be deported for the greater good and many undocumented workers who should take their place.

Once there was a congressman who died and went to heaven. While standing in line he saw a bunch of doctors, teacher, priests, Rabbis, Clerics, and all sorts of people from different professions. When each of them approached Saint Peter at the gate, they were given a small halo, a small set of wings, a bus pass and a key to a small room in a public housing project. When the Congressman got there, a big band started playing. Angels swarmed. A big limo pulled up. The Congressman got a huge halo and big wings and an Angel band to follow him around, and the limo took him to a live in a Princely, heavenly estate. After about a week, the congressman came to Saint Peter and asked

"Hey, when I showed up, I got all this stuff. pretty swank! I am wondering why is it that I get the angel band, the big halo, the limo, the big mansion, but all those doctors, teachers and clerics just get a bus pass to cruise around heaven. What gives?"

Saint Peter said "We got millions of those guys around here, but you are the first congressman who ever showed up!"

@ lynda....I hear what you are saying. You are frustrated.

There is a disconnect between the logic and emotion. you write:

"Homeland Security is unable to handle the illegals because I have personally been told there are so many...."

Is the reason HS cannot handle the matter because someone told you something? the Dept. of HS operates independent of what people tell you or do not tell you. Who told you? What is the basis of the case? Did they tell you the truth? did they lie? how does this effect dept. of HS.

you write "I know a person that entered the US by abusing his student Visa. 1 month before his Visa was to expire, he met and married a US citizen. "

Again, the fact that the visa was about to expire does suggest that the entry was not abusive. You do claim the marriage was a shame. The process of review does involve interviews with people such as yourself for many years.

"He has several moving violations and was ticketed for having a concealed weapon. Nothing was done."

Again, several moving violations are not criminal offenses. Being "Ticketed" for a concealed weapon is odd. Who receives a ticket for a misdeameanor or felony? No one. It seems you describe moving violations as if they are a criminal offense and a criminal offense as if it were a traffic offense. and a person is innocent until proven guilty. Again, what is the case number?
I hear your frustration, but there is a disconnect in reason from what is described.

The Constitution is clear on Immigration and nationalization.
Will President Obama be allowed to usurp the US Constitution?

It is up to you my fellow Americans to immediately send a strong message to congress that this Administration is not above the law and it must not be tolerated. President Obama and his wife have said on several occasions that our Constitution is an out dated document and it is clear that he is trying to change it without going through the process set in our Constitution. Call, write , fax and visit your representatives today and tell them this is unacceptable.

There is no doubt he will wrangle the law in to some twisted law logic that may sound reasonable but it will be a false prophet in the end because the intent in levels of law are consistent and overwhelmingly clear on immigration and nationalization. It is first mentioned Article I Sec. 8 of our Constitution where congress is charge to create a uniform rules of nationalization now known as immigration law.

Each of our current immigration laws are based on a 235 year mountain of laws that have been well thought out, investigated and argued on the floor of the two chambers and voted into law. Are we now to say that all these sessions of law making were unnecessary? For 235 years congress had taken that charge seriously if they now allow this administration to dictate the law it would be inexcusable.

Its crazy that George W. Bush establishes the department of homeland security and empowers it to execute policy. When Obama executes policy, it is claimed he is circumventing the Constitution. Even the words by Rep. Sensenbrenner claim the policy is executed under the the Department of Homeland Security....a Department he voted to establish and which Congress empowered.

there is no circumvention of the Constitution. Congress empowered the President to execute policy with the powers Congress endowed the office of the President.

Obama did not do what Oli North did, and openly violate a law congress passed in order to sell weapons to IRAN!

Now Oliver North appears on Fox News and pontificates how "Extreme Islam" and "IRAN" is the real enemy of American....(but does not explain why he sold weapons to them)

And back then, Sensenbrenner made statements to support Oli North when he covertly circumvented congress by sellng weapons to Iran.

Now, sensenbrenner claims it is an outrage that Obama executes policy under the Dept. of Homeland security....which are powers congress voted for and which sensenbrenner voted for.

If obama did not execute immigration policy under the dept. of homeland security, he would be blamed for neglegence. When he does what congress asked, he is blamed for that,

but an Iranian arms dealer named oliver north gets praise from sensenbrenner.

congressman and supporters, are you off your meds?

Does anyone believe that there are only 12-14 million undocumented workers? And to me, the practice of calling an illegal alien "an undocumented worker" is like, calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist. I cringe when I hear that terminology, because it makes it sound like they are all fine and dandy and that the government is just behind in jotting them all down on some paper somewhere. They are what they are. They are law breakers. They are illegal. Meaning, they are against the law.

Okay, for all you bleeding-hearts, answer the following questions:

1. Can you enter Mexico, Canada, Great Britain, France, Germany, Poland, Japan or China without a Passport or Visa?

2. In any of the countries mentioned above, can you receive government sponsored programs such as free health care, retirement, disability, education or welfare without a visa or citizenship?

3. If you enter one of the above countries legally, are you detained or deported if you can not produce your visa or passport?

4. Why should it be any different here?

As someone who owns a business in a field that is frequented by employers of illegal immigrants, it hurts those businesses bottom-line that don't, and I never have, nor will I ever practice those hiring techniques. There is a process to become a legal citizen of this country and all are welcomed that choose to go through that procedure. Until
Congress and the President change those requirements, that is the law of the land, period! The illegal immigrants are harming our society, pose a risk to our security, cause taxes to raise unnecessarily for programs they have no legal right to, take jobs away from those you rightfully should have those jobs, and on an on... Take out illegals and how many teachers are really needed, or could the class siz shrink. There are sooo many ramifications, but until the law changes, through Congress and the President, then illega still means illegal & they should be detained or deported.

@ Pamela,

As I stated in my letter that was published, the conditions are ripe for a win-win situation that is not possible under the present policy. I would suggest the Brandt plan of 1984 illustrates similar situations with workers that were faced in Europe after WW 2, and its successful navigation in the Alsace-Lorraine region. The Alsace-lorraine project and its evolution under the Brandt plan was a great example of how when life gives one lemons, one can make lemonade. It would be better to follow successful pragmatic solutions rather than to bite down on lemons, and complain about the sour taste. I would suggest that since the Berlin Wall is a proven historical failure, we should not copy that policy, but draft a better policy for the 21st century based on more successful models.

Skinner proved that a mice will run through a maze faster if there is a piece of cheese at the end. he also showed that when the cheese was replaced with another mouse that would start a fight, the mouse ran through just as fast.
rallied hate can be fun, but never gets the job done.

The refugee problems that have been building in the past have reached critical mass in the 21st century. Reactionary policies will intensify the problems. america does not create sound policy, we will be incapable of handling worse situations in international affairs in regions that have significant interests to our nation, including interests of national security.

hope this helps

@ Brian,

I have never been to France, Germany, Poland, Japan or China.

But Mexico, Canada, Great Britain and Switerland. Great Britain often did not stamp my pass port and I was in the country without legal proof of my entry. Switerland did not even look at my passport but the immigration officer just stared at me pissed off that I interupted his crossword puzzles, and waved me through along with a crowd of others who never even attempted to approach the booth, and again, I had no record of my legal entry. I have entered Canada and Mexico without a passport and most of the time they did not even look at my drivers license.

The boarder patrol in Texas on 5 different occasions had to look up were Wisconsin and grilled me if I was in Texas legally...and I was hundreds of miles away from the boarder every time, visiting family nearby.

In terms of health, welfare, retirement benefits for those countries, I do not know.

All I know is that I had an employer who went out of business and did not pay me, and I had unemployment calculated based on wages that I did not receive. Latter, the state sued my former employer and got their money, and sent me a check with my wages that were due, minus all the taxes of course, however, and none of this money the state collected out of my wages applies to my unemployment, and it disqualifies me from all the extended benefits talked about.

I can't get any of those benefits that I pay for in my own country.

Just a nitpicking aside here, since it has arisen several times in this thread and it's one of my pet peeves - it's LOSING, not LOOSING. Thanks.

@ Mr. Peck....Brandt plan of 1984? Europe after WW 2? Alsace-Lorraine region? This is 21 Century in the United States Of America. Americans don't take kindly to any notion, as to make lemonade out of our lemons. Ask any legal citizen on any street if they think we should just live with people who shoved themselves on the rest of us in large numbers, to just smile and live with it, that it will be good for all of us in the end. The government has to do something and it has to do it quick. Don't you think? The longer they drag their feet, the bigger the problem will become. Correct? I am tired of hearing that our country must tip toe around, not to hurt any other country's feelings, who are not dealing with the same problems we are. No other country should be offended by us securing our boarders and ousting uninvited law breakers.

@ Pamela

You asked me a question about something specific and attack me when I suggest historical examples that have been successful, without ever making any statement about what was in the Brandt report or the model of the alsace-lorraine project, nor any statement on how this has influenced 21 century institutions such as the EU.

I am truly sorry I could not have done a better job for you. I tried to service your request and was attacked for it.

you have a point about

"Ask any legal citizen on any street if they think we should just live with people who shoved themselves on the rest of us in large numbers, to just smile and live with it, that it will be good for all of us in the end."

but smile and live with you as my neighbor is what I must do, even if you will not reciprocate.

And if americans do not take kindly to making lemonade out of lemons,

well then I am truly sorry.

But this is still the United States of America and people do have the right to be wrong.

"those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it"

and they do. The berlin wall was a failed model. America should draft policies based on more successful models.

The stakes in the 21st century are so great that if we do not solve the problems of the 21st century, we may not live to see the 22nd.

It is reasonable to look to examples that have been more successful just as much as it is reasonable to look to the Constitution, rather than saying "That thing is from 1776 and this is the 21st century and does not apply" (which is the logical outcome of the syllogism you used to attack me).

A lynch mob is a model of democracy too, but not a good one. And although popular opinion may be effective at persuasion, and a tool often used by Stalin, Mao, and Hitler, history has given us many lessons to show that following the crowd is not always a good thing to do.

this is the 21st century. we should know better.

or else we are condemned to repeat history.

In most countries that have issues of refugees crossing the boarder, one of the obstacles faced is the popularization of the refugees as criminals. Bin Laden directed attacks in the Sudan, creating refugee problems and then recruiting Jajawid from persons who viewed the refugees as scapegoats, spilling the crisis into the darfur, while solidifying support for him prior to his flight to afganistan.

Quadafi used the same tactic, and the same tactic was used in Bosnia.

Sensenbrenner is using the same tactic to rally his base. It is a provenly effective tactic to rally a large group of people around hate, to view refugees as criminals.

Terrorists and smugglers and drug dealers seek to cross boarders repetatively and through covert means. There is a difference between the motives of a criminal or terrorist in boarder crossing than that of an economic refugee.

and if the majority of americans take offense at making lemonade from lemons as was stated against me,

well even Jesus Christ himself was condemned to death based on the rule of majority, but that does not present empirical evidence that the Capital punishment was the proper administration of justice given the facts of that case.

I am not impressed with the arguement "Ask any legal citizen on any street if they think we should just live with people who shoved themselves on the rest of us in large numbers, to just smile and live with it, that it will be good for all of us in the end."

The east germans claimed the opposite but no matter.

In the end, the heavy handed immigration policy failed to keep people in and it failed to keep people out and it was a policy that bankrupted that nation.

I understand your point cowdung, but it still has no causal link to the points I have raised. It is extra topical.

Mr. Peck- Of course if you travel through legal means, you may not get much resistance, but try sneaking in to any of the countries (like most illegal immigrants) and you will be immediately detained (arrested) or asked to leave. Mexico, is one of the strictest when it comes to illegal entry. It is like I said before, until Congress and the President change the laws (not just the President by decree), then they should be and must be enforced. There is no hate, but a real need to shore up our borders.

If it makes you feel better, we can look to the great wall of china instead of the berlin wall. The massive government building project was undertaken to keep people from the North out, and in the end, it had no effect.

Trade ceased. Raiders and pirates (terrorists of their day) and smugglers simply bribed the gate keepers and the raids into the empire's territories did not cease.

Terrorists, pirates, smugglers, and dealers in human vice can afford the bribes, and do not stay on the other side to build a life. This is profoundly different than an economic refugee.

The great wall of china was built as an immigration policy. It bankrupted the empire and had no effect. It was a failed policy.

but if I cite that example, I will crucified for trying to learn a lesson from history and that it does not apply today in the 21st century.

but in both cases, the policy failed and it is a bad model for our nation to follow in the 21st century.

its bad enough when someone tries to reinvent the wheel. Its even worse when they try to reinvent a broken wheel.

You know, we are dealing with a politician who is writing this rant. Rep. S is so imbedded in Washington, I can't believe that anyone is taking him seriously. The businesses who employ illegal workers are the same ones who contribute "big time" to Rep. S's campaigns. If President Bush did the same thing that Obama just did, it would have been touted as great for business and the economy. Let's also put the blame where it lies, with the Republicans who have been in the majority over most of the past 10 years. What did they ever do to correct the illegal problems? Nothing!! The short term memories of most of the conservatives really amazes me. We'd have many of the same problems with or without the illegals. That is because businesses are sending their jobs overseas. How can you defend that??

@ Mr. Dey....I agree with you sir. My comments on your post regarding entry into Mexico, Canada Great Britain etc. were annecdotes of my experience, where yes, I did legally enter these countries, sometimes without a visa or passport, and many times with one that was never stamped or even recorded of my legal entry and I had no proof of legal entry while I was there. And I have been grilled in Texas by the boarder patrol 5 times when I was hundreds of miles away from the boarder, and yes, each time interogated me on how I entered Texas from Wisconsin legally. I find it amusing, and hope you do too. (personal annecdote is not a basis for refutation).

It is my understanding that there was immigration policy in the '70s. Reagan granted amnesty in the 80's which reduced pressure to the situation and the early establishment of economic zones in mexico were begun which were the roots of NAFTA. In the 1990's, Clinton said NAFTA would stabilize wages on both sides of the boarder, which would reduce economic refugees. Nafta did not do this.
Many are calling for a return to immigration policies from the 1970's. I agree with you that sound immigration policy can be very beneficial and is over due, and I agree that boarder security is important. Immigration policy has always projected future tax revenues verses payouts in setting immigration quotas and has always resulted in a net profit for america. I agree this is important too. This should be a win-win situation.

however, vilifying economic refugees has been a tool for terrorist. In bosnia, populations were attacked, sending them across boarders. once there, the refugees were seen as criminals and taking over the host country and taking away needed resources and an economic burden. From this hate rally, karadzic and others found recruits and supporters.

the same tactic was used in Rwanda against the Tutsi. The same tactic was used by Osama Bin Laden in the Sudan in the 1990's and recently used by Quaddafi in Lybia.....attack a population and create a refugee crisis, and the people in the host countries will view the refugees as criminals and support you for having attacked them.

Causing a refugee crisis is a weapon of mass destruction.

It works so well as a tactic to gain political power at the expense of the public good, that sensenbrenner wrote this post....
and look how much support he has gotten by rallying hate rather than good solutions for our country.

Its a pity he is no better of a politician that Quadaffi, Bin laden, or any leader of a modern genocide.

america deserves better, and needs better in order to move forward in the 21st century.

I do not know what you mean mr. cow dung why someone would search for something that they believe is not true.

Often, good science requires one to conduct good experiments on things regardless of what the scientist believes and often results in discoveries that are counter intuitive.

In regards to my texas interogations, where entry into texas from wisconsin was considered suspect, I cannot answer for the beliefs of those officers

but I believe that they may possibly have interogated me not to find facts but rather to gauge my reactions, listen to my accent, look for involuntary reactions to my surprize, ie....to see if they could decode any "Poker Face" that i may have rehearsed. But this is only a guess on my part.

Maybe they believed I was in texas and legally entered texas from Wisconsin, but interogated me anyway.

Maybe they were sadistic bastards who are psychologically unfit to wear a badge like those who beat rodney king or frank jude, in which case, they would have plenty of motive to search for something they believe is not true.

but in regards to my experience in texas, I believe those officers acted properly regardless of what they believed or what they were searching for.

vilifying refugees and foreigners is an effective way to rally hate, and find a base for political power. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, PLO, Zionists have all used this tactic.

Hammas attacks israel, forcing a military intervention. By the time the army is mobilized, those who carried out the attack are long gone. The army cracks down on the population that remains and could not flee. Bad things happen, and Hammas finds new recruits from those who were victimized.

The same tactic was used in bosnia, rwanda, lybia, and the sudan. In the late 20th Century, it has been a weapon of mass destruction.

Sensenbrenner uses it to rally his base by writing this blog.

and no real solutions are obtained for either his constituents or our nation.

The congressman writes

"Under this new decision, Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) and Department of Homeland Security officials will choose to allow some illegal immigrants currently involved in deportation cases to remain in the US. "

he suggests this circumvents congress....however, the customs and immigration department and the dept. of homeland security are both established by acts of congress, and endowed with powers by Congress. Sensenbrenner voted to establish the Dept. of homeland security and ICE reforms under George Bush.

Sensenbrenner and all of congress voted to give policy making powers to the Chief Executive. Obama is not circumventing congress.

and if obama is wrong, its not obama's fault that sensenbrenner passed a shitty law.

I remember covering a protest a few years back in West Allis when Sensenbrenner brought up the illegal immigration law changes. Man standing next to me (who didn't know who I was) said to me, "I know you are Mexican. And you know, Hitler had it right." I looked at him and said: "Actually, I'm a member of the media and I'll be quoting you on that...by the way, I'm Irish, English and Slovakian but first and foremost let me let you in on a little secret... I'm a human being." But one of the things I found interesting while doing that story -- the owner of a roofing company told me they were having to cut their wages and benefits, and loosing business because their competitors' were owned by people who are here legally, but often employed people who are here illegally. They had lost so much business because the competition brought in laborers that they didn't pay benefits for. So the cheap labor also depressed the wages and benefits for others in that field.

I also interviewed the women who brought Frank Jude to the party where he was beaten -- that was clearly the product of a lot of alcohol and racism.

no, I do not wish to edit my word choice.

If sensenbrenner and all of congress passed immigration bills and Homeland security bills that he now finds objectionable, its not obama's fault that sensenbrenner passed a shitty law.

It is too bad sensenbrenner does not take responsibility for his role and congresses role in laws that he now finds objectionable. I find that lack of character in a public official more offensive than my use of a word considered profane.

I appreciate that cow dung. but does it really matter if they delete it or not? In the end, sensenbrenner may still read the update or he will not, and maybe will think about it and do better in the future or he will not.

but if congress passed a immigration and customs laws and homeland security laws that sensenbrenner now finds objectionable, its not obamas fault for congress having passed a @#@#$y law. (thanks cowdung, I owe you one).

if my single word is offensive and in violation of terms of use, the lack of responsibility by the congressman on his contribution to what he now calls objectionable is more offensive.

(thanks cow dung)

Denise- What I see, from both sides of the aisle, and I have fallen into this political trap a few times, is the fact that all of politics seems to be based on "there must be an alterior motive" on everything. Beliefs and convictions are somehow cast as this great conspiracy. Because everything is based in a conspiracy theory, not only is the other side wrong all the time, that somehow they must be evil or puppet to someone else. This topic seems to reflect that opinion on an issue where some common ground should be easily attainable. I find this topic to be neither Republican or Democrat, yet many of the threads still find a way to take a jab at the other side. From a pragmatic side, you are right about the roofing business; and I, who is in the landscaping maintenance business, see prices driven downward because of competing companies use of workers with or without temporary visas. Wages in my field have been stagnant with many companies for years in this trade. This in turn, affects how many good paying workers I can hire and still remain competitive. My opinion is not formed by allegiance to party, but to a growing trend in my day-to-day operations. There is no civil discourse anymore, and almost every issue has become a mini civil (sometimes not so civil) war. Until this stops, or at least eases, there will be no compromise on even an issue like this.

@ denise...its terrible what happened at the sensenbrener rally. Rallying hate produced a vote. Yes, frank jude was a victim of alcohol and racism.....but there were red flags. the journal sentinel reported officer Bartlett had terrible records from 2 previous posts at UWM and the DNR, had a criminal incident in his past, and was hired without a job interview by the MPD. Spengler had many incidents of misusing a taser, once within 1 hour after his initial training and was brought before the fpc for busting down a door of an apartment and tasering a man while watching television. The man claimed spengler boasted about how good it felt to beat up the mans brother a week prior, and all the frank jude cops had repeat appearances before the fpc. It is a good thing the journal sentinel, mayor barret and chief heggerty all advocated for psychological testing to be required for hiring at MPD....a national standard for over 30 years prior to the beating, but only implimented in milwaukee after a terrible incident.

It is a terrible thing when rallying hate is an effective way for politicians to gain votes.

many people are frustrated by government, and vote along side those who are like the man you described at the rally who was motivated by more than frustration.

when hate and frustration are the sources to gain votes, politicians will keep people frustrated as such is a breeding ground to remain in office, but our nation needs something better.

I think you are spot on Mr. Dey...

Boarder security is an important issue. Economic feasibility important in immigration policy is an important issue. Economic refugees is an important issue. Mistreatment of workers be they immigrants of natural citizens is an important issue. Human Trafficing is an important issue. Employers gaining unfair advantage in the market place through exploiting economic refugees and labor laws violations is an important issue.

There is common ground on all sides that these needs must be addressed.

Statistically, the changing demographics in america verses the demographics of mexico show there are things that both groups can contribute to in order to achieve mutual benefit and symbiosis, and through reasonable efforts.

it is a shame that polarity must exist and that votes are obtained by hate rallying.

but I will state that it seems offensive to me that Sensenbrenner and congress voted for the very laws he now finds objectionable, and does not claim any responsibility for his part of the contribution, but squarely blames obama entirely.

that is wrong. I hope he does better in the future.

well thats too bad. I remember the days when the county executive took the bus to work, and if they called in sick, they caught hell the next day from everyone on the bus who knew they cut. I remember walking into summer fest and the senators and representatives stood there to shake peoples hand and sometimes remembered your name. I have even received good attention from matters I brought to my elected officals.

I guess no more.

Well, jim writes that he votes to establish Immigration and customs and the homeland security department, and endows these executive agencies with rule making authority, and now finds it objectionable.

he has a contribution that he is not taking responsibility for.

if he does not read these comments, thats too bad.

but I do hope he finds more character.

because america needs good policy in this and other areas
and better leadership and better character.

what a shame it will be if americans ultimately prove themselves to be both stupid and racist.

hanging out at the delafield BP seems strange.....I get emails from PAC from both sides with the names of various elected officials attached to them....senators, congressmen, etc.

"Donate to my PAC so that I can pass important legislation. " they always say.

I think, "Hey! thats is your job as an elected official and you are paid a good salary and benefits to do just that. What gives by forming a PAC to solicit money to do a job that you are already paid to do?"

I guess everyone wants an AIG styled bonus check these days.

hanging out at the Delefield BP to talk to jim sort of seems like donating to the Jim Sensenbrenner PAC fund....paying him for doing a job he already receives a good salary to do.

Sometimes if money talks, the only noble thing to do is to walk, regardless of what that makes me. After all, if jim does not read or get a report on what is said on his own blog, he is walking away from something important regardless of what that makes him.

I do feel the same the way....its a lot of good marketing information that is being missed out on, and if the job is to represent people of the district, the elected official should listen to all sides rather than only speak at rallies of their supporters, and then go on television to say how many people of the state express the same thoughts as they believe.

but people vote when emotions are rallied and when they are frustrated, so providing solutions is a sure way to get voted out of office.

Maybe Jim is worried about "illegal" Canadians entering the U. S. through International Falls Mn.

Maybe I should ask jim if he can help me get a job with the Canadian Intelligence Agency. I would love to be a spy for Canada. That would be an awesome job. You can go up to someone and say "Hi! I am a canadian secret agent. Want to go fishing?" and then you go fishing with someone and talk about stuff and gather information, and report back on the conversations you had.

There is something to be said about having a country that people do not want to attack.

Couple of things I'd like to point out... this "article" IS an opinion piece and it was written by Sensenbrenners' office, which is clearly evident in the byline and the description, which designates it as an opinion piece. When I made my comment earlier about the rally in West Allis, I was not referring to Sensenbrenner... but just some random guy who happened to be standing next to me.
Taking my editor hat off now... what I find interesting is that whether you believe illegal immigrants should or should not stay here, ignores a larger issue and that is labor costs. But an even larger problem exists and that is the war between employers and workers. While I was laid off/in college finishing my grad certificate, I worked at baking company through a temp agency writing and editing their ISO 9001 docs for an audit. Over 2/3 of the production workers were hired through temp agencies and they did that so they could keep wages down, and not pay benefits. So I started talking to quality manager one day and he was telling me how an entire plant of there's was shutdown in Texas because of illegal immigration issues. I asked him what he thought of that and said, "Ya know... I don't have a problem with hiring people who need a job and want to work." But I asked him if he was aware of the public costs associated with hiring people at lower wages and having no benefits. What costs?

Congratulations Greenfield, you voted for "W" in 2000 and 2004 and Walker in 2010, that gave the GOP legislators reason to put us in Sensenbrenner's district. Politicians find "territory" best suited for their own best interest each redistricting cycle. As I wrote earlier, redistricting should be placed in the hands of a non-partisan reapportionment commission. But now, Greenfield you can now share a Congressman with Chenequa, Nashota Oconomonoc Lake, Hartland, Merton.and other places where the folks make more money in a year than you can in ten years.

Sensenbrenner is a fat, senile racist fool who thinks that a lot of people share his stupid ideology. Honestly I don't think he has any shame left in him. last we read of him was 2006. Of all the trials this great country has gone through be it the three wars or the recession he never uttered a word or concern but mention something about immigration and suddenly the moribund mummy comes to live and pollutes the atmosphere with his stench.

Well last night I had learned on the news that Our President has an Aunt and Uncle here that are living in the United states and they are both Illegal Immigrants. His Uncle was arrested for being under the influence. So now I know why he is footing this all around

I have advocated that the demographics of america and of the economic refugee community has featured ripe to create a win-win situation. When the letter was published in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, I got calls to my home from Tea Party people wishing to discuss the idea....all were dumbfounded because they never heard of such a thing in the dialog, but were respectful and curious. On this thread, I was attacked on general principal. So maybe here is a suggestion that may be more palatable.

Mexico has oil reserves. The Mexican Government has given exclusive drilling rights to Pemex, a state oil company and treats Pemex as a significant source of revenue. Most of the production has come from the cantarell field, but has been in steady decline since 2007 requiring nitrogen injections. The other oil fields are under dense rock and require many wells to extract, or are in fields that are more diversified. Pemex, like many oil companies does not have the money to expand production in these fields, even with a captive market right next door in the United States. The central plain in Mexico is mostly uninhabited and in a prime zone for solar and wind production, but is presently a haven for organized crime.

What if Jim proposed getting a guy like T. Boone to work with Pemex to develop mexicos oil reserves, and develop the energy potential of the central plane. Such a project would create jobs for american businesses and have benefits for immigration policy.

The only problem with a politician being a solutions provider is that if people are not frustrated and outraged, they have less of a reason to vote. but america needs better.

just to restate the obvious.....a joint venture for developing the mexican energy reserves in a manner that can serve the US market would significantly change the situation that drives mexican economic refugees, while developing beneficial economic effects for the us. As far as the existing refugees in america, some would return to mexico, some would have needed skills for american interests with such a venture, making the guest worker program more efficient, and give the united states more clout in influencing mexico to address the influx of refugees as well as meet the needs of those who have already landed on our shores and give mexico and the united states resources we do not have today to better navigate this issue.

but also to restate the obvious, an indirect approach to immigration is not the only way. There are resources that can be used to create mutual benefits, and reduce the problems of security, economic feasibility of immigration policy, effects of undocumented workers on small businesses, exploitation of an economic refugee as a disposable worker, etc.

heck, if we can build a wall, we can drill for oil and let T. Boone set up his plan, and maybe then we would not need a wall.

The US has traditionally found an OPEC nation to be americas private oil supplier, willing to break from OPEC. This was KUwait, but they can't do that anymore.

It seems that a lot of the people posting comments live in a vacuum and are buying into this BS that we need people that break our laws to come here to do the jobs we won't do. I am a 51 year old female and I have a physically demanding job, where I work long 16-17 hour days, with long hours in the brutal Mississippi sun. Don't tell me Americans think we are too good to work hard! Speak for yourself you lazy bastards. Have you ever watched the show "dirty jobs"? Those are American citizens doing those foul nasty jobs. I have applied for jobs that were nasty and hard and told I was over qualified, doesn't mean I wasn't willing to do the job. If you aren't willing to work hard for what you have, speak for yourself! Don't take jobs away from hard working Americans to fi e to law breaking foreigners!

Once they are legitimized they will be expecting a fair wage and will leave the agri business for other jobs that Americans will do. So then we will need more ILLEGAL ALIENS. It's a revolving door. We pay to educate them and then we need more because the educated people don't want to do the menial jobs. They are not proud or they would make things better in their contry. They are arrogant demanding they receive better treatment in America than citizens in a country they broke the law to enter. Who's gonna pay for their social services when there is no middle class? Do you think the rich will? hahahaha They are the most stingy with charitable contributions. Obama is an imposter

The point about the oil was to illustrate the general idea that both sides have things of value which can be employed for mutual economic benefit.

Other things are possible on a much smaller, less capital intensive scale.

and it changes the situation.

there are solutions.

Its funny, the way I was raised was to never look down on someone because of their job, and things seem to have changed. To work my way through school, I had a job hauling garbage in a hospital. I was amazed how people would look down on it....maybe some people who have sadistic tendencies seek out professions where they have control over others. Nursing may be one of those professions. to cope, I got tested and joined Mensa. It made things easier. When people hurled abuses at me and called me stupid, it was easier to take knowing that I had a card in my wallet proving that I was a genius, and if we had to switch jobs for a day, I would be more qualified to take over their job than they would be to figure out mine and haul the garbage without causing infection. but you can't tell people that because they do not want to believe it...but there are some things that are true whether you believe them or not.

I even get some of the strangeness at job interviews...."You have a degree and academic accomplishments but a work history of menial jobs" (even with progressively more difficult assignments). It seems that working for a living is not as esteemed as it once was.

The unemployment rate may be much better if private industry had better HR practices that could better utilize social capital.

At least Obama is not a fascist. Many comments on this thread against obama are paraphrases from the 1939 NAZI Rally in New York City at Madison Square Garden.
The political philosophy of Hitler and Mussolini did not prove effective for their countries, but they were effective in gaining support for hitler. Rallying hate and fear against foreigners seems to be working for Jim too.

Its a shame he is not a better politician. In this article, it says that obama's policies are through the ICE and department of homeland security. These bills were drafted and passed through congress, and empowered the office of the president. Jim voted for these. Now he does not like these bills, yet takes no responsibility for his part in his discontent. Its not obama's fault that Jim passed bad legislation. It is lack of character on jims part. And to claim the president is circumventing congress by executing duties required of him in the legislation jim passed is bearing false witness. And that is a Sin.

in terms of the revolving door arguement. in high school debate, students are taught logical fallacies.

One is called "the slippery slope"

The revolving door arguement is a text book example of this logical fallacy.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html

used in a high school level policy debate, the entire claim looses all points.

in attempting to be active citizens in forming good policy for our nation, we should at least try to employ reason that we ask of any high school student.

I have read ALL of these statements...the only thing i can determine is Dems want illegals here and conservatives want them here only they want them to be here legally. The one thing i DIDN'T see was this startling fact...it is estimated by the U.S. Boarder Patrol the 300,000 illegal aliens left the country ( i suspect to find a better chance at work) The economy is so bad here even the migrant workers are leaving. Thank you President Obama.

duane,

your first statement about what dems want verses republicans want is an over generalization. It is also based on a neurosis often seen in megolomania. ie. the statement is based on information you could not possibly had unless you read both the minds of those who posted as well as their comments.

the other part of your argument is a post hoc fallacy.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/post-hoc.html

It is unfortunate that policy dialog is replete with logical fallacies. If people only vote because of outrage, frustration, fear, and politicians only get votes through logical fallacies, accusations, and fanning the flames of discontent,

then what sort of policy will we actually get?

there is a saying that "People will always get the criminals they tolerate and the police that they deserve" and it is said that reverse is also true, that "people will get the police they tolerate and the criminals they deserve"

perhaps it is the same with politicians and policy in America.

truly sad

but you wrote this:

I have read ALL of these statements...the only thing i can determine is Dems want illegals here and conservatives want them here only they want them to be here legally.

In order to arrive at this supposition, you would have to know the voting patterns of the people from the posts as well as what you read.

This is true even in your recent update.

that is a neurosis. And you are correct. It is not uncommon. Freud showed at the turn of the last century showed everyone has neurosis.

you seem very defensive about it.

paul peck...what are you afraid of...everything to you is a fallacy? Do you fear reality?

I am merely pointing out basic logic that is taught to high school students is often void.

I realised the two different handles after the post. my bad.

I stated specific examples and gave specific links to support my statements. To claim that I am saying everything is a fallacy is an over generalization.

Do I fear reality?

Well, once when I lived in Alaska, a bear about 1/2 a mile away was making a straight run towards me and my fellows. This is odd behavior for a bear, and is usually typical from a female with cubs nearby, and they have bad eye sight and will make a straight line run towards something based on smell and what they perceive as an invasion of territory.

I certainly feared that reality, and it was a healthy fear.

but we all survived and did not need to kill the bear in the process. so it was all good.

fear to face ones neurosis is often associated with narcissism. strange when mild and common neurosis is illustrated, it is taken as an attack.

interesting question on the allegations of illegal votes. To vote under another persons name as it has been alleged, a person would have to have a specific name of a person in advance. They would have to know their name, address, ward, etc. And, they would need to know that that person would most likely not be casting a ballot in a given election. If a person were so adept in gaining such personal information, getting a false ID would be the easiest part. The caucus scandal involved the misuse of state resources for elections by state officials. The wisconsin state journal reported this involved voting records and other state records. The caucus scandal demonstrated it was easy for an elected official to gain the needed information to cast fraudulent ballots. Immigrants were blamed but if such was happening, state officials were in a much better position to procure state identity cards. In both cases, a voter identification card was indeed a red herring. There were 2 classes of ballots in the senate bill. Some people get full ballots. Others get provisional ballots, and up to 24 or 48 hours to make any corrections needed on their state id cards, then the provisional ballot is counted but no longer remains anonymous
its an "escape from freedom", which is a good book to read
some people really are afraid of reality

Could it be that President Obama's immigration policy is a ploy to garner additional votes in the 2012 election?

Even if illegal immigrants cannot legally vote, many hispanic, legal voters may vote for Obama because of the policy he introduced.

Furthermore, any illigal immigrants that may vote (illegally) during the 2012 election would vote for Obama for the same reason.

that would be the key would it not...knowing in advance what a relative or neighbor would do.....and also know that they did not or will not vote absentee or register in a new ward before you attempt to poach their registration. if such things have occured and occured on wide scale as alleged, misuse of voter records and other documents for campaign purposes was reported by the Wisconsin State Journal as the heart of the caucus scandal. A rogue who would steal a relatives or neighbors vote is limited to commit the fraud, but caucus scandal type offenses would allow actuarial marketing analysis and allow for such things to be commited on a level of scale.

The claim is that such fraud occurs by illegals, and is wide spread.

.even after the passage of the voter id bill....and the bill still has different classes of ballots....Those who receive an provisional ballot will have the ballot counted only after someone inspects it and sees who you voted for.

That is far beyond ballot security.

There are checks in both systems that are not being considered.

and if someone forged documents to get on the voter registration list as is alleged, the same issue occurs. You would have to know that someone else will not register under the same address.

It is strange that even after passing a voter ID bill which was a red herring, the same accusation arises, even from adopting a plan some claimed would solve the problem. that is strange.

It was stated on this thread that illegal immigrants were voting enmass. Someone posted asking for documentation. I read the senate version of the voter ID bill and found the provisional ballot system very disturbing, but illustrated that if votes were supposedly cast enmasse that many steps were required, with many red flags both in registration and at the polling place.

It is interesting that even when a voter ID law is passed that was claimed to remedy the allegation of wide spread fraud at polling places, that the problem is still claimed to exist with full blame on immigrants even though the law has not yet gone into effect.

I find that very strange. If the voter ID law that was passed was put forward to remedy the allegations of fraud, why then is it still claimed that the offenses are occuring and being committed by a specific group.

IF such offenses have or are occuring, the actions documented during the caucus scandal make it easiest for public officials to use state resources for elections. This was documented. The counties that have the worst historic discrepencies in their voter and ballot counts are the counties that have county clerks that have been given immunity from prosecution during the caucus scandal in return for being a state witness.

which is also strange. If immunity and amnesty never works, why is it acceptable for persons who certify state elections even when its known they broke the law?

its very strange

Since obama was not born in the united states, america is now under the power of a foreign government, seeking complete take over through immigration policy. (lol)

Just as when terrorists attacked the Reichstag (German Parliament) the german people saved themselves by making hitler their chancellor and swearing a loyalty oath to him and Germany.

America must now do the same and blindly goose step behind those who say they will save america.

That is as logical as many of the posts on this thread

and when all is said and done, we will no longer have a country worth defending.

Given Obama's past relations with his father, If I were Obama's uncle on his fathers side, I do my best to keep it a secret from any judge.

and in regards to Zeituni Onyango, she was granted assylum in May, before this policy change went into effect, and is dying.

It is a pity that politicians gain votes by fanning fear and frustration.

@ pamela

accepted.

The Wampanoag should taught the Plymouth Settlers how to survive and look what happened! Illegal immigrants took over and stole their country. Maybe the Wampanoag believed people acted more like they did. Maybe those who cling to notions of Manifest destiny believe humans act more like they do.

But maybe there are more things that on the issue today that can be used for mutual benefit in the 21st century. We should try.

even if your premise is true, the conclusion is still false.

in terms of formal deductive logic, yours is called the Ad Hominem Tu Quoque....also known as the "You too Fallacy"

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem-tu-quoque.html

and just because a lot of people accept this type of illogical because it seems valid, it is not.

@ Mr. Lyle Ruble, You have commented many times and you have read other's concerns. With all of that aside, how do you suggest the issue be resolved? And please be short and to the point. Give them all amnesty because their numbers are too great, and because your kind, those of Caucasian European descent, will be the largest minority by the year 2043 so we should make friends now? By the way, that's some crystal ball you have there. Wish I had one. Do you really believe that weeding them all out will effect the rest of us, so greatly that we would wish for them to return? It will not be overnight, it will definitely take some time. So much time, that any changes we will be pretty gradual. Common sense does dictate that their practices must stop. They must be stopped from entering freely into the country and those harboring them and employing them have to be stopped as well. The issue will not be resolved, if we do not stick to our guns (Ooooo, I meant that as a figure of speech only!) The message to the rest of the world should be LOUD and CLEAR that we do not tolerate their actions. Period. And not, that we are a bunch of wishy washy, picky choosie bleeding hearts. Agree or disagree? They make their own choices. No one held a gun to their heads and the ones respecting the law should not have to bend over and cater to their every need. Agree or disagree?

The Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration recently audited a tax benefit known as the Additional Child Tax Credit, a refundable credit meant for working families. As a result of vague U.S. law, the number of illegal workers collecting the money has skyrocketed. "The payment of federal funds through this tax benefit appears to provide an additional incentive for aliens to enter, reside and work in the United States without authorization, which contradicts federal law and policy to remove such incentives," It said 2.3 million undocumented filers claimed the credit in 2010, adding up to $4.2 billion worth of refunds. OUCH!
Read more @ http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/02/undocumented-workers-pocketed-42-billion-in-tax-credits-audit-shows/#ixzz1Wts1fQdx

A pregnant undocumented woman in Nebraska is sueing the state's government because her status must not result in the denial of medical care for her unborn baby. In June, a law went into force in Nebraska prohibiting the provision of free prenatal medical services to undocumented foreigners. She claims other Nebraska laws indicate that "children may receive medical care "from the moment of conception." It is estimated that there are up to 1,500 women presently in her same shoes in Nebraska.

Read more @ http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2011/09/01/undocumented-woman-sues-to-get-medical-attention-for-her-unborn-child/#ixzz1Wtv0hhbs

I did shoot at the bear and chinked a rock before him in his path about 50-75 yards away from where I stood. He or she (most likely a female bear) came to a halt and turned and ran away.

I was very lucky I did not hit the bear. Most likely it would not have stopped the bear and just made it more angry, and even if I had made a lethal hit, it most likely would not have died until it killed us all, even if I hit it several times with a 30 aught six or even a 38.

And all I had was a single shot bolt action 22, and it was running at us as fast as a car.

You obviously have no experience in such matters.

Even if I did make a one in a million shot...say through the eye and into the brain of the bear, resulting in instant death of the creature, We were between the Chugach range and the copper river valley in alaska. The wilderness is a real thing.

Had we attempted to field dress the bear and eat it, it would have invited a host of other predators. Even if we could carry the carcass out of the wilderness with us, the same result would have occurred.

what you are suggesting was simply not the reality of the situation. It is not likely that we could have made camp for the night and eaten the bear and survive, and even if it were possible to return with the bear, it is not likely we would have survived the journey back through the Chugach forest and range.

Of course, had the bear not been startled and run off or if I missed my mark, we were indeed to prepared. Lying still is often suggested when a bear comes up to you, but a bear usually charges when its already intent on aggression.

Some of my friends were readying bear spray while I was reloading in another attempt to scar it off. Fortunately the second attempt was not needed.

and yes

I was very afraid of that reality.

The following are what wishy washy written laws create:

The inspector general's office stated for the year 2010 an estimated 2.3 million of undocumented workers filed tax returns claiming a particular credit that they were not really suppose to be entitled to, and as a result of some "quirk" in the way the law is written, they were paid $4.2 billion worth of refunds that they never should have received.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/02/undocumented-workers-pocketed-42-billion-in-tax-credits-audit-shows/#ixzz1Wts1fQdx

A pregnant undocumented woman in Nebraska, has filed a lawsuit against the state government and legislature in which she argues that the mother's immigration situation must not result in the denial of medical care for her unborn baby. On June 1st, a law in that state went into effect, which states that no undocumented alien is to receive free medical care. But her lawyers state that there are other laws in Nebraska's books of laws that state "a child is to receive medical care from the point of conception". So they intend to put up a good fight stating those laws. It is estimated that there are 1,500 other women presently in her same shoes, in that state.

Read more @ http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2011/09/01/undocumented-woman-sues-to-get-medical-attention-for-her-unborn-child/#ixzz1WttYs9EC

Even If I had a higher powered rifle to use in the situation, making a kill shot would have been the last option. That was the reality of the situation.

If an immigrant does not pay taxes, they are blamed

if an immigrant does pay taxes they are blamed

Is the only solution that will be acceptable a total purge
even if such actions also have inherent harms
and even if there may be other options that have a proven track record of succes
such as illustrated in the brandt report
or that demographics of immigants from mexico show positive inputs and symbiosis for america?

So lets see...
the answer answer seems to be yes...that only a purge is acceptable. If we purge america and build a wall, as our population ages and mexicos is much younger, eventually they will have more man power to operate that wall, and come back anyway....so a final solution may be required.

there is a rally in Michigan this weekend that people speak against because they wear swastikas, but borrow their rhetoric.

if they pay taxes they are condemned
if they do not pay taxes they are condemned
if amnesty is granted under ronald reagan, they are condemned and amnesty is decried
if there is another possible solution offered, it is condemned on general principle

Is it really true there is no other possible policy in regards to economic refugees?

Deuteronomy 23 15
If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand him over to his master. Let him live among you wherever he likes and in whatever town he chooses. Do not oppress him.
thus the answer is no, there is another possibility. God said so and he trumps you.

When I lived in California in the '80's, I worked along side people who gained amnesty under Ronald Reagan. I also worked along side guest workers. I also worked along side people who were given tax ID numbers from the IRS, working as sub contractors, allowing their income to be taxed, and they returned to mexico for most of the year. The received refunds based on their income and taxes they paid.

If a person earns income and pays taxes and the tax laws hold the deductions for the US to gain interest on that money, and the person is entitled to a refund of part or whole of the principle held in trust, why is it wrong to give the refund that is due?

It is wrong to manipulate laws to justify theft.

If taxes are taken out of someones income, which the government collects and operates the Federal Reserve, and eventually fund the government, and the tax code says that in some cases, the tax payer is due a refund on part or whole of the principle collected,

but fox news and others claim that if the tax payer is not an american national, the refund should not be given

how is that different from confiscation of jewish property under the third reich that was justified upon laws passed in the reischstag that defined nationality status of jewish persons?

Shylock believed he was entitled to his pound of flesh, but in the end, even he realized it was not his right to take a drop of blood.

hi everyone! there is a problem with our immigration system that's the main reason why illegal immigration don't have an answer. it takes 10 to 15 years of process to earn a legal status here, that's why people are discourage to apply in a legal way. I myself experienced those kinds of frustrations. you see, people from all over the world want to build a better future for their family, not all illegals are criminals. we need to understand that america was a country of hope,freedom and future. don't you see that because of greed, pride and politics america are becoming un-united.

and sometimes while they are waiting, the IRS offers tax key numbers and collects taxes from income earned in the United States, and it seems people find it objectionable to grant tax refunds as much as it is objectionable if no tax is collected. Instead of graditude for people who subsidize our tax levy, those who wait are condemned, and calls for even more confiscation result.

it is not a tax payers fault if they receive a refund due to a quirk in the law. It is not the tax payers fault that congress has passed a bad law.

Thats Jims fault.

It's about time the president plays hardball with the obstructionist right. I'm looking forward to more if this. He's played way to nicely with this bunch of right wing thugs.

Many claim the government is too large, inefficient, redundant and has too much red tape and call for a reduction of regulation.

If this is claimed in regards to immigration, that possibly present policy and definition is based on expectations under the Clinton Administration, and that immigration policy can be readjusted to reduce waste, redundancy, and red tape, and better reflect changes over the last decade, this is decried, often by the same voices that call for less regulation by government on other issues, and advocate instead for greater government authority, regulation, and greater government intervention.

(It is curious no one ever calls for privatization of the immigration process! to allow private companies and non-profits, the ability to grant citizenship! I guess we should be grateful for at least that much).

there is no legal line for some country's ,i was told there is no way to stand in a ,,line'' try to immigrate legaly, otherwise i would step into that ,,line'' no matter how long i would have to wait , there was not even a chance to come to see america as a tourist from our former easter block country called czecho - slovakia, so why is everybody talking about some legal line ? to have a chance to come here legaly ,why we have to live here in shadows , just because we didnt get a chance to leave a iron curtain Barbed wired , russian occupied country, where all our fammily got robbed by their communist goverment for all their land and bussnines they had before, got arrested refusing to give it up, and why we never got a chance to get a visas as soon as we step on u.s. land just like cubans ,we had to support by 1 000 000 dollars daily , our country had to send to castro on russian orders so they can have their rackets close to u.s. there.Our country is now run by the same communist who ruinned it before, they are capitalist now , they come here w. all the money they stole from people,and get a investment visas here if they want to come with all the money they stole, but for regular small people chances are non existing, there is NO LINE TO WAIT IN FOR A LEGAL IMMIGRATION ! why are all media confusing public that there is a line, so Mr. OBAMA PLZ BRING US OUT OFF SHADOWS,we want to breathe air as a free people,now we are slaves to Bureaucracy we live in as hunted animals shame

This is nothing more than a re-election move by Obama trying anyway he can to get votes.

If this were a ploy for Obama to get votes, then why did this thread start with Jim Sensenbrenner bashing obama on immigration policy? If it were a ploy by Obama, then why is this not a front page press release by his staff, but rather, a media sensation by Jim?

If it is a ploy to gain votes, the causal relationship does not seem to be from Obama.

And joe, the "Stand in Line" started by GW. Bush when he tried explained his guest workers program, as a new program for undocumented persons already here to become citizens but they would have to "Start at the back of the line"that was the rhetoric.

The rhetoric is an attempt to simplify the entire immigration code into a sound bite you can put on a bumper sticker. And sadly, it works. People use the phrase as if it has become the norm, and eventually confuse their thoughts from an over simplified premise as legitimate reasoning.

Its an effective propaganda technique that came out of research in semantics at the turn of the 20th century, and developed by Stalin. Sort of like the phrase "Conditions on the ground". the phrase when used in conjuction with Iraq like technological angels. suggests people to imagine themselves hovering about Iraq, suggesting something other than our presence as an occupying army.

After the suggestion become accepted as a norm, people confuse their own reasoning with embedded suggestions. "standing in line" is the same oversimplified technique.

The phrase "Standing in line" in regards to immigration suggests that the person recall or imagine experiences standing in line such as at the DMV, Grocery Store, Bank, etc. A normal psychologcial defense mechanism is sublimation, and the semantic association of the "Standing in line" merges with immigration policy in an over simplified way, but one that is easy to accept, and easy to focus on. When the over simplification is accepted and focused upon, any debate against it will also be an oversimplification, and a dicto simplicitor of reason. But, those who accept the rhetoric will justify it with their own thoughts, and personalize its validity, even though it also is based on the logical fallacy of a sweeping generalization. When this occurs, people personalize the rhetoric, an attack on the rhetoric will sublime as an attack on the person.

This came out of research by Pavlov and others at the turn of the 19th century, and in studies on hypnosis and the subconscious, and sadly, they have become the norm today, and are effective.

http://www.linkedin.com/osview/canvas?_ch_page_id=1&_ch_panel_id=1&_ch_app_id=40517220&_applicationId=1200&_ownerId=73474352&osUrlHash=X1rz&trk=hb_side_apps

As one who's formal education was in the social sciences, specifically psychology and sociology; I find it's regrettable that the research generated by my chosen disciplines has been subverted to be used as a means for manipulation and control of the general public. Just as Paul Peck has pointed out in his well written comments; those who desire to control the perception of others have used the research to craft, well designed propaganda, to sway the general public to inculcate very selective beliefs into their realities.

The business disciplines of marketing and communications exist only to pragmatically apply social science research into means of manipulation. Targeting specific groups with information to validate their already held beliefs and ingrain a perceptual structure that views the world in the desired manner and to reject all contradictory information. This is classic "brain washing". It is so subtle and covert that people are completely unaware of the manipulation.

The information put forth to simplify the issues surrounding immigration is a prime example of controlling the message and validating xenophobia and ethnocentrism. Rep. Sensenbrenner are using this to redirect the public's attention from the true state of affairs.

Thank you lyle. I am not a social scientist but an artist. In the 19th century, the workings of the mind were considered the realm of artists. The book Dr. Jekly and Mr. Hyde was an effort by Stevenson to cure his cocaine addiction by exploring his mind. Jack london made a similar effort in John Barlycorn, An Alcoholic memoire.

During the Silver age of russian art in the 19th century, the works of pavlov, freud, and studies in hypnotism and semantics became of interest to artists. Film editing resulted as artists explored how to incorporate the findings in the new sciences of psychology.

Stalin of course believed art should be a function of the State, and the works from the Silver Age of Russian art were mechanized into tangible propaganda methods.

It is nice to see my research holds some validity to others other than fellow artists or advertisement professionals, whom I sometimes have taken as clients for commercial graphic work.

Romneys logo is a text book example of using ambiguity to presage auto suggestion.
some people are shameless.

and to reiterate on the basis of this blog,

Jim Sensenbrenner claimed that Obama was altering policy within the Immigration and Customs department and within the Department of Homeland Security.

Jim Sensenbrenner as a member of congress voted to support the establishment of these Federal Deparments.

Federal Departments are placed under the direction of the Executive Office endowed with certain rule making authorities.

Congress could have put forward bills to established a federal bureacracy under congressional control, but Jim never proposed such a thing.

Jim voted for the Dept. of Homeland security along with rule making authority under Presidential control.

Excercising rule making authority by the president in a manner Congress authorized is not circumventing congress as Jim alleges

Jim had a contribution to the situtaion he now finds objectionable, but blames the President exclusively.

This is a sweeping generalization on Jims part.

I believe it shows a lack of character

Well said lyle.

I often have the same frustration and often must say "there but for the grace of God go I". and when I see people rally against economic refugees as shout out passionately for people like Jim as people once shouted in support for Barabas, (and they got what they asked for), then Jesus said "forgive them they do not know what they do"..,....I realise that I am far away from that spiritual plane where I want to be.
And the same thing is illustrate in the lives and traditions of other religions and beliefs and even in persons who act out of conviciton of conscious, and may be atheist or agnostic. I know what you mean lyle. I often feel the same way. But still, I am still far away from where I want to be, and the miles that lay ahead of me is the most important measure.

As a child, I was ashamed of my country when i learned that to gain an ally in the middle east, my country sent agents to the shah or Iran to help torture iranians. And they rebelled as we would. I thought "no american would ever vote to torture someone". I have been proven wrong. Maybe one day something like the iranian hostage incident will happen again and americans will be enraged to see our flag burned by people we once tortured.

Given how evil people are in my own generation, I wonder why God promised Noah he would never send a flood again to destroy the world. it would seem that sending a flood may not be a bad idea. But I am not God, and I am glad I don't have his job.

@Paul Peck...I have a different perspective as to what G-d expects of humanity. We are in a covenant with the G-d. Our charge is to continue the process of creation and create a world that promotes and enjoys justice, eliminate hunger and disease, protect the physical environment and allow each person to pursue the opportunities that are present.

Evil has always been present and we have to pursue that which is not evil. The battle between the forces continues and at times the opposition wins and sometimes they lose. All we can do is fight the good fight one day at a time.

It does not matter. I am not a fundimentalist, but the stories are part of our culture, and parables contain wisdom, and often show that things. It is easy to see how the people shouted for barabas to be released after people aroused the crowd when one looks at some of the things said on Fox News for example.

There is something common in that people must resolve the question of the nature of the universe and our place in it. Maybe its part of a semantic brain that seeks to equate meaning. Maybe its not, but no matter. The question must be resolved.

(there is no word in any language for someone who's point of view is "Gee, those thoughts never crossed my mind). Atheism, Agnosticism, Spiritual, Religious, etc. are all forms of personal resolution. No matter how different the conclusions may be, it seems inate that we must all seek a resolution for ourselves, and there in, there is common ground on the journey, regardless of how different our conclusions may be.

It is too bad that politics and religion often cannot be a dialog about the journey towards our resolutions, but often degrade into a battle of ideology.

If such could be the case, Jim could sit down with the president and work out an immigration policy rather than trying to rally the crowd and blame another entirely.

@ Pam, true enough. you recognise the ad hominem fallacy.

However, it does not prove they are true either.

Fox does have a point of view. They openly admit that. Chris wallace has openly said that Fox is balanced relative to what they believe is a bias by channels like MSNBC. By Wallaces own admission, the "Truthiness" of Fox's presentation cannot stand alone, but must be considered only relative to sources outside itself.

If the claim is that a "Glitch" in the law gives tax refunds to undocumented residents in a manner that demonizes these tax payers from receiving these refunds on the grounds that it is a huge price tag for other tax payers, then there is an error in the causal-link of the harm in the status quo.

If a harm exists because of the law, but those who benefit from the "glitch" are focused on and degraded or suggested that they are abusing the system, there is an improper conclusion regarding the cause and effect of the harm.

If a harm exists because of a "Glitch" in the law, it is not the tax payer who is costing america a high tax bill, but rather the harm exists because congress passed a faulty tax bill.

The representation came from Fox News, and in this case, due dilligence was not rendered in the report.

But in this case, Fox News may have illustrated a point worth consideration. Should the tax law be changed? If the tax law should be changed based upon national status of the tax payer as the sole condition of refunds, then there would be little difference between such policy and other historically bad things.

When Rush Limbaugh began his career, he started his show by saying "This show is not the news. It is a show about what I think! It is not about fact, or fairness, or anything else. It is about what I THINK! and if you do not like what I say, get your own show".

There is a degree of validity to this. There are many things a person can read where they start with a filter of knowing the point of view of the author. Many magazine articles are written with a personal voice that implies the point of view of the author, leaving it to the reader to engage fact from opinion. Some claim this has its proper place in journalism as it may be impossible for any person to ever be completely objective.

Rush limbaugh eventually took on the trappings of news show, and did not continue due dilligence in his show, which he justified as it was "his show." and eventually dropped his disclosure all together. Fox news mirrored the format and claims to be news yet makes the claim that it presents a point of view that MSNBC does not and therefor it is balanced (as per chris wallace), even its programming does not perform due dillengence. You are correct pam that it is possible that a program can attempt to prove a case and still include something factually correct. By its own disclosures, Fox news does so only for a purposeful end. Due dilligence requires mindfulness of the POV.
CBN and Democracy Now may be examples of a defined POV but better due dillgence towards its viewers

You may be right....but I still think the story of Johna and the whale is one of the funniest things....its like a saturday night live skit...."A guy walks into town covered in fish vommit and says "turn from your sins! the end is near! Turn or Burn!" and the whole town say "this turn or Burn guy says we are doomed....I guess we better listen to him because he appears to be completely insane" and they do what he says....." Then God saves the city and Johnna is upset because his prophesy did not come true because the people did the right thing. He was the only prophet people listened to and thus was the only sucessful prophet because he convinced people to do good, but he was also the only unsuccessful prophet because the city was spared.

I believe this story was written as a comedy, even if it something like this actually happened. There can be much value in a good narrative, regardless of what you believe.

you may be right lyle. you make a good point on mythos. The Myth of Sysiphus holds value to existentialists and pagans alike, and its a good story. The Sin of Sysiphus was that he dressed up as Zeus and told everyone he was Zeus.

And guess what? People still do the same thing today

http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/FaithMatters/story?id=5225539&page=1

I find it curious.

I wonder what the difference is between the Siberian Messiah and a politician attempting to rally his base.

That is a very good point lyle.

If I were a reporter on the story on the amount of refunds undocumented workers receive and its relation to higher taxes, I would wonder about who actually filled out the returns. When I lived in California, I saw many lawyers who advertised help on immigration issues, and knew some guest workers who went to such lawyers and received an IRS tax key number, allowing them to work as a subcontractor for periods of time, and the same lawyers often prepared the tax returns for the people I knew as well has putting on automatic deductions from all checks the person received to pay for legal fees on the back end if the guest worker did not have the cash up front, and most did not.

Tax lawyers do have their own lobby group.

but I am not a reporter and I have not investigated the story and annecdote is not sound proof, but it is a reasonable hypothesis that there is more to the situation than was presented.

I would suspect that most of the tax refunds went to pay legal fees and other things like check cashing fees, but this is only an hypothesis which is only an educated guess.

"those who have, more is given. Those who have not, more is taken away"

and it is true that the working poor make a captive market that do not have the ability to move to new markets. there can be a lot of money made off of keeping people poor. Check cashing places are proof of that. If people are not paid enough to keep a minimum balance to hold a bank account, you can take money from every pay check. Even Walmart jumped into that market, charging a smaller fee to cash a payroll check, and even if you go to a bank where the check was written out of and the funds are kept, many banks require an account to be opened by the check bearer none the less. and if you need to the money for food today, you must go to a check cashing place and pay 10-15% just to get your own money for no other reason other than you have no other options but to pay the fees other people do not have to pay.

It is a reality for some in america, but not all.

@ Paul and Lyle,
It's not like I am in bed with Fox News. So put your fur down. Geeesh! What does a gal have to do around here to state a fact or any logic without being crucified? Hmmm..... Here is something the two of you can ponder for awhile, just for fun. I know it is off the subject matter, but I haven't seen the two of you sticking to the subject entirely anyhow. Ponder this. God creates Man. Man disappoints God for the last time. God brings on the flood to wipe disappointing mankind away and starts over, with knock offs of his old prototypes with original sin still intact (Noah and his family) There was no tweaking. No changes made to them. Just kept them the same, with the exact same capabilities to disappoint all over again. Why would he start over with his old prototype? How is the logical mind he gave us, suppose to wrap around that? Does he like to be disappointed over and over again? Does he just like to torture man by giving him a logical mind and then expect him to blindly believe the illogical? Or, is HE not what HE really is? Hmmmm..... that's a mind boggler isn't it? It came to me one day as I was watching the movie Jurasic Park. Don't ask, I have no idea why it entered my head at that time. Ha! Ha! Ha! :)

So lyle is a socialist and and GOD hater...that sums it up for me...he belongs in Afghanistan! Only problem is he don't have the ....to defend this country or GOD!

National policy is a heavy topic.

@Pam. I like the breakdown. Having a logical mind and yet we often behave irrationally. and I also like the way the notion just came into your head. That too is part of being human.

Thanks for the post.

@Duane Michalski...Where did you get the "GOD hater"? By the way I was in "harms way" from 1965 to 1974 and you were...?

@Pam...now it is my turn to apologize to you. Many aspects of communication are often lost in blog posts....affect, tone, non verbal communication, etc.

I apologize if my response regarding fox news seemed as if a tag team match against you. It was not my intent.

There is a place for subjective voice. I tried to weave that in. perhaps not successfully.

I apologize for my part. I will try to do better.

G-d....thats a cool way to do it.

About 2 years ago, the layton gallery had an installation on the "Art of the Book" where book making artists installed work. There was one scroll that an artist made where he took a piano wire and bent it into the shape of each letter, and burned the letter into the scroll through the paper.....I know the cursive style of writing is often called "flame script" style as an honor to the word of G-d. It was really beautiful to see the artist create a scroll that made literal use of this tradition.

There was also an Illuminated manuscript which is being undertaken by Queen Elizabeths Caligrapher....to create the first Hand written and illustrated bible since the middle ages, but in modern illustration style. The layton gallery only had facimilies. Recently at the Dead Sea Scroll exhibit at the Museum, they had a few original pages of this modern work in progress.

That is a cool way to do it....the G and the dash and the D.....I think I will start doing that too. After all, God gave man the power to name things, and a name that is holy is beyond mans power to define. If man can define G-d, then G-d would be subordinate to Man in the human mind, and what the buddhists may call Right Mindfulness (sort of) may be compromised.

I did not know of that tradition lyle. its pretty cool.

Many traditions consider the Holy to be un namable...as if greater than the ability for comprehension and definition by mortal man. Some traditons in the Gospels speak about several demons named "legion" because there were several, and when the name of the spirit is known, that it can be subjected to commands. This belief seems to have cross cultural adherence. The Navaho have traditions of having that your own name is only to be known to others in certain cases. The Pharaoh of Egypt held power because of his secrecy...that only certain people could come into his presence, or even speak before him. Amen is the name of the egyptian god, meaning "so be it". Traditions of genies and other things describe that if you discover the name of the Jin, it is under your control, and vice versa. In the story of Adam and Eve, Adam is given the power to name things....thus, can define things, compare things, reason things, or even have a rational mind but justify irrational things, etc. But he cannot name G-d, because that is Holy, taboo, etc. In the bible, the only section of where God descibes himself, defines himself as "I AM". no name.

Some Christians have adopted the same tradition of using an indexical term such as Yahweh, Jehovah, etc. Jesus in the Lords Prayer expands the the custom even further in that no index is used at all but rather only descriptive references for the invocation of Diety "Our Father who is (art) in heaven Who's name is Holy"
no word for G-d used

Lao Tzu described it this way

The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.

Confucius did not use the term "Tao" but instead used the term "Mandate of Heaven".

Similar things are described in the Bagavad Gita and the Upanishads and the Dampada.

maybe to some it is a manmade rule. maybe to some it is not. maybe to some it is a connection to the Jungian collective conscious. Maybe to some it is a recognition that there may be something beyond the limits of a purely semantic brain...maybe to some it is a ritual to gain G-d's favor. Maybe to some its a devotional practice.

similar things seems to manifest in many cultures and belief systems

the custom described strikes me as sort of poetic.

@ Mr. Peck.... To me, it is just a bunch of pootsie footing around. God knows what is in my heart. I feel he knows what my intent is when I use his name. But that's just my logical mind again.

Well, it has been a slice (a phrase from my generation, meaning it has been a pleasurable) discussing topics, with both you and Mr. Ruble, but now I must return to living my life, busting my hump for the man. Giving a good portion of my pay, to my government, where my say, has no meaning and watch them spend it illogically. To me, that is like salt being rubbed into an open wound. If the government wants it's people to snap, all it has to do is continue conducting business as they have been. By not intelligently solving a darn thing, with name calling and buck passing. Good-bye to this thread :)

best wishes Pam....I hear ya....

I have heard politicians claim they were out to cut government waste since the Johnson Administration....

After all this time, you would think they would have made a dent in it.

sometimes it seems they have to keep a problem going just to get people angry enough to cast a vote. There does not seem to be an incentive for politicos to ever solve a problem.

happy people do not vote as often, and people who are not eager for power or influence or just plain fed up do not tend to donate to campaigns as often

what is the incentive for Jim to do anything else but complain?

@Pam, if you are still there...I was only trying to show many people share a similar belief system across different cultures.

Not to be a cut against yours.

Maybe he saw an Obama bumper sticker and instead of beating the driver up, he thought it was best to take it to the next level. Maybe he was upset about something that happened at the post office and 'went postal'. Maybe he read the book or saw the movie "The accidental tourist" after dropping acid while watching fox news and saw no future in working as a bag boy at a grocery store.

who knows?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Accidental_Tourist

Nikolai Erdman wrote a play about how a man became upset because he could not find a job, and when his wife feared he may be suicidal, a neighbor tackled him and begged him not to kill himself. Seymon asked why would he do that, his neighbor pointed out it was because he did not have a job and everyone thought he was a bum. Then the guy really became depressed, and rumors went around about how Seymon was really going to kill himself, so they all showed up and asked him to kill himself and write a note claiming it was for different reasons...business, politics, fame, glory...basically to politicize the tragedy for someone elses purpose.

The entire play was a sarcastic commentary on the early Stalin regime, and the day before opening, the play was shut down of course and the playwrite sent to Siberia.

It seems people still politicize such tragedies even today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Suicide_(play)

I agree stephano

When I lived in California, I often would go to mexico. I saw many americans go down there too, running their dune buggies through people's towns, tearing up the country side, and engaging in vice simply because they could.

here is a song by johnny cash dedicated to Patriot. Don't let this happen to you. well, got to get breakfast, maybe pancakes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKbVo6n5Lws&feature=related

"If they legalized heroine, that does not mean we would use it" - Ron Paul and the crowd cheers.

"Given the choice between love and heroine, most people will choose heroine" - anon

good luck Patriot

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/7546586-418/county-wont-hold-felons-for-immigration.html

the one person not quoted in the article was the Cook County DA....as to how they did not raise the issue of a flight risk in this case. If the DA did raise the issue of a flight risk and the judge gave due consideration before setting bail, that issue is resolved.

If the DA did not raise the issue of flight risk before the judge who set bail, it is not the error of immigration policy or the Cook county ordinance, but rather, a case of error by the prosecutor.

I have seen americans go to mexico and tear up entire towns with dune buggies, destroying peoples homes and threatening lives.

most americans do not do such things

if this case of possible misconduct by the cook county district attorney serves as proof linking criminal behavior to all immigrant, then americans who go to mexico for drugs, brothels, and general mayhem render guilty all of us

and that is patently false.

the sun times article may have a valid point for this thread.

Obviously, the cook county court system cannot institute its own rules to set bail, hold hearings, evaluate flight risk, contact IDS, and manage its own jail populations in a cost effective way that is suitable for its own community.

There for, we need the Federal Government to dictate to cook county and other places.

there is something paradoxical in a philosophy that calls for reduced powers of the Federal government while demanding greater use of governments role as sovereign (language "government as Sovereign" is taken from the court ruling Patco vrs. USA where the Republican appointed Federal Judge defined Government's role as "Sovereign" and therefor could not be required to enter into a legally binding contract outside itself, thus completely negating collective bargaining for Federal Employees and dissolving the Patco Union).

It is strange that in some areas, greater role of Sovereign is demanded, and then at other times it is called for complete elimination of powers of Sovereignty.

In this case it may be paradoxical. Godel's theorem shows that when point of paradox is reached, systems collapse in both math, the natural world, and man made systems of rule based order.

topical to this thread, Obama did not make the rule regarding the cook county court system. Cook county did, and the release in this article was after a judge set bail. Maybe the subject of flight release was addressed in the hearing. Maybe it was not. in either case, the mechanisms for IDS are either in place, or the Cook County DA's office made an error.

It was either evaluated or it was not at the bail hearing. If it was evaluated, then the judge set the bail as he or she saw fit. If the person does make flight, it is an issue of the cook county court system and if a flaw exists in cook county courts and DA office, that will remain regardless of immigration policy.

besides, americans take flight of mexico to escape justice too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKbVo6n5Lws

http://abcnews.go.com/US/illegal-alien-saved-child-center-debate-policy-illegal/story?id=14347821

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/24/national/main3536135.shtml

What is America coming to when an illegal immigrant can come to this country and get his own reality TV show taking a job that could otherwise go to Snookie?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/23/arts/television/23mill.html

Here is an idea....

More refugees are caused from lack of fresh water than war, famine and disease combined. The western aquafir in the US is already fragile and environmental issues in America's southwest are effecting fresh water supplies in both Mexico and the United States. From the CIA world factbook

"the US has intensified domestic security measures and is collaborating closely with its neighbors, Canada and Mexico, to monitor and control legal and illegal personnel, transport, and commodities across the international borders; abundant

rainfall in recent years along much of the Mexico-US border region has ameliorated periodically strained water-sharing arrangements; "

Here is the CIA overview on the US environment

"water pollution from runoff of pesticides and fertilizers; limited natural freshwater resources in much of the western part of the country require careful management; desertification"
We have about 3000 cu km of renewable water resources as per the CIA...(lake michigan is 4,920 cu km), and the us looses 477 cu km of water each year.
Solar desalination plants in Mexico could take pressure off the western aquifer in the US, stabilize water sharing agreements, and have beneficial effects on issues of crime on both sides of the boarder as well as having beneficial effects on the flow unauthorized entry on both sides of the boarder. there are less grandiose possibilities too, but who cares to solve a problem when having a problem gets votes?

and export a dwindle our own freshwater resources in the process?

you see, even your ironic solutions are paradoxical, self referential, and contain the seeds of inherent failure.

We have a Great Lake full of the stuff. Pepsico will certainly be happy to keep making more, and perhaps create a bunch of new jobs in the process...

Everybody wins!

According to the CIA factbook on the Intelligence analysis of the United States, our entire country has 3000 cu km of RENEWABLE Freshwater resources.

Lake Michigan has 4,920 cu km of freshwater volume.

Our nation looses 477 cu km of freshwater every year.

Two years ago, the CIA listed the pending crash of the Western Aquifer and a fresh water crisis by 2020 as a significant threat to our nation. Last year they cited the threat as being mitigated by epa mandates to rebuild an aging water supply with better water recylcing.

We do not have as much fresh water as you may think. Lake Michigans resource is expected to be a critical national resource by 2020.

Lack of fresh water is a factor in the present immigration issue.

and a world water crisis has already caused some countries to mandate that all water intensive industries must be moved off their shores. good news for us, but lake michigan has been loosing water ever since they dredged the saint lawrence sea way in the 1950's. The loss is presently mitigated by dredging policy. It has been know for decades that the sea way must one day be blocked.

The lake only has 1920 cu km more fresh water than 100% of our nations entire renewable supply. With the strain on the western aquafer, lake michigan is not as unlimited as you would think.and a great deal of fresh water here does not help americas south west or strain on water sharing between the US and mexico, an issue central to immigration

have you never read the book "I Robot" or seen the movie with Will Smith or read the 1950's Issac Assimov's short story series?

In that book/movie, lake michigan is a desert. Assimov did not just make up that detail to make a good plot for a story set in 2035.

That was the estimate at the time when the began dredging the sea way of how many years lake michigan could survive before it became a desert. The thinking at the time was that in 50 years around the year 2000 would be able to close the sea way or apply new technology, and they would fix it.

Present estimates of water lose of the lake are in keeping with the original estimates a generation ago, but we are not acting today as it was hopped.

back on point,

water sharing treaties with mexico are a driving factor in immigration.

seawater desalination is a known technology and in some countries, their almost their entire supply, and well suited for solar.

better water sharing treaties with mexico would be favorable to the immigration issue for people on all sides of the aisle

Thanks lyle....very good input...

and it is true enough that the water resource of the upper mid west due to the great lakes is already attracting industries. In many cities in the area, workers are being trained to retrofit water and sewers with water recycling equipement as this is a growth industry projected in the tens of billions around the US over the next 2 decades. Food and Food processing are also water intensive industries and General Mills in Minneapolis has expanded water recycling to its Minnesota plants to be viable in the long term, even though many of these plants are near the great lakes.

It is true that water resources in our area will do much to attract industies, but it is far from an unlimited supply, especially when water is in crisis elsewhere.

In regards to immigration, water sharing treaties with Mexico are strained. Lack of freshwater drives many economic refugees, and is stressing our nations western aquifer to near collapse.
A project to develop solar water desalination plants in mexico and the US could ease the strain on water resources in that desert area, create jobs in the US, give US great leverage in the plants were built in Mexico or at least in economic free zones, and reduce a stress that drives economic refugees from Mexico.
Patriot of course will object, but since the Rio Grande can now be waded across, even he may see the benefit of better water policy with mexico if for no other reason but make the rio grande deeper

and its viability has been proven, not just technologically but also commercially. Solar works well when coupled to desalination in many parts of the world, not just for desalination but also for water treatment.

George W. opened up the western ranges for solar leases. Good so far. Bears & Stearns bought up most of the solar leases outside Los Angles. These are the leases that have the highest output and closest to the largest energy market. But, Bears Stearns refuses to build on them until 2018. Many smaller firms are already developing the less profitable tracts. Over 1 billion has been invested in these tracts by wisconsin based firms. As a business move, Bears and Stearns is letting others do the pioneering and setting the infrastructure for solar, and waiting until supply and demand is highest in the LA market, regardless of what is best for the country right now.
It also takes away the US ability to develop solar and profitable water desalination in the south west to take pressure off the western aquifer and ease tensions on US/Mexico water sharing agreements. Tensions on these agreement lower the water table on the Rio Grande AND put pressure on people to flee life threatening situations by becoming economic refugees.

Because of the US solar lease policy and Bears Stearns trading strategy, Mexico remains the only place left where strategic planning can occur to meet the needs of the nation as a whole.

@paul peck....it is interesting how all the petro/chem companies have taken steps to convert themselves from oil companies to energy companies. As we transition from oil to alternative energy sources, they wish to be on the ground floor so that they can end up controlling the new energy resources just as they controlled oil and gas. We need to reorganize the situation where the oil companies and financial institutions cannot continue manipulation and stealing.

paul peck... EV solar, all in costs, at a 10%cap rate, runs 150-300 USD/mwH;wind 45-150/mwH;nuclear 30-50/mwH;coal & gas 25-60/mwH. Best case, solar is the same cost as wind;worse case, it costs twelve times as much as coal/natural gas. These numbers do not include the distortions caused by the idiosyncratic tax credits that lower the cost of wind or solar.

T.Boone pickens disagrees, and the expansion of the solar tracts in Nevada and other places under George w. leases to private investment firms have been profitable, while the largest tracts are not being developed due to trading policy by the investment banking firm holding the leases for reason disclosed in their quarterly reports. Their explanation differs.

true enough, most off the shelf EV cells are around 12% efficient, with some of the best at 18-20% efficient. NASA's terrestrial based "Rainbow Array" is over 30% efficient, but has not been used outside the space program.

In parts of the world of desert/mediterranian climates such as in americas south west and the us mexico boarder, solar desalination is the most cost effective means for water evaporation.

In terms of water desalination, solar is more cost efficient in evaporating water with high specific heat capacity than fossil fuel. In that process, solar is used for evaporation with over 90% thermal efficiency in an exchanger, the same as with fossil fuel, but without the long term fuel costs once nearly identical infrastructure is established, making EV analysis irrelevant.
If one considers the water demands of Arizona, southern california, etc, the cost structure is very different from direct solar EV processes.

In Israel and Saudi Arabia which demand wide spread use of solar desalination, surplus energy is often available to add to the electrical grid.

By contrast, the Thompson steam engine was 20% efficient. The Watts steam engine was 28% efficient and began the industrial revolution. The internal combustion engine is about 32% efficient.

Solar remains in the 18-20% range....about double what it was at the turn of the last century. if there were an 8% increase in solar cell technology, there would be no question about its use

and in some applicaitons, such as using solar to evaporate sea water to create fresh water for a desert population, Solar has proven to be a very profitable business model, even without generating any electricity at all.

If one also considers the oil prices two years ago verses today, and the experience of zero point production in most coutries of the world (pemex has some long term issues with output. Exxon, BP, and other have not invested in exploratory drilling since oil was at 20 dollar per barrel, and increased domestic drilling significantly since Obama took office to offset the decreased output from foreign oil, and the fact that 3 entirely new Natural Gas plants must come online every month just to maintain current levels of demand), the projected costs by 2020 are much different than they are today.While some solar companys are developing now, to be in full operation by 2020, Bears Stearns is waiting until 2020, to introduce any solar power to the LA market when prices will be higher, demand greatest. In the mean time, Bear sterns includes the leases with patent proprietary it purchases for an investment portfolio, and trades shares in the portfolios future value.
Bears Stearns choice is not based on the viability of solar to be useful or profitable, but rather, how it can be most profitable to them.And thats what a business is supposed to do. I am a Catholic. The Catechism of the Church says "The free market does not always meet the needs of society, especially the poor" Bears Stearns is a good example of a profitable business decision for them, that does not always meet the common good. It is not about the viability of solar. over the long term, solar is more viable.

I have tried to access google scholar for you.
ScienceDirect site that offers peer reviewed papers seems to be down for maintainence.

many links I have use that server as does much of Google Scholar.

http://www.sciencedirect.com

I will look for other servers and links for you that may be active right now.

The best I can offer at this time is the cost per acre of the Proposed Posiedon plant north of San Diego, waiting approval for an enviromental impact study on the sea water intake. Water currently sells for 700 per acre foot to the San Diego market. The posideodon plant plans to sell its desalinated water at 900 dollars per acre foot, powered by the encina power station which used gas and oil.

This is almost a 30% projected increase in costs for fuel and water demands in the area, and this is at subsidized prices from the encina powerplant. The projected start date for the plant is before 2020 when costs for both water and fossil fuel are projected to be even higher.

these are not the numbers you were looking for, but until science direct comes back on line, I cannot do much more.

I will find some papers that are very critical of the cost effectiveness for solar too.
Reverse osmosis and other things does adress many issues. There is also the factor of scale.

I will do my best to meet your request

Yes, there are publicly traded companies of all kinds that merely hold various assets, and seek Venture speculators. You find the same things in solar, oil, gas, nuclear companies, even some medical marijuana companies have been traded on the NYSE and folded, but that is how things are "Capitalized"....

Bears Stearns is doing that very thing with solar leases, holding them with other patents into a portfolio, without any management that has any experience with buidling any civil engineering project...but raising lots of capital in the energy futures markets.

Let the others build and fail, and pick up their pieces, patents, infrastructure, and plan to build only in 2020, when industry projects peak oil to be universal even for US domestic reserves....then oil cannot be an option...coal possibly, but with green house issues, acid rain, which also limits industry.

there are over 18,000 publically traded solar companies.

there were 3 major players that went bankrupt last month.

they were PV manufacturers

not power plants

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/02/business/global/us-solar-company-bankruptcies-a-boon-for-china.html

"You've got transmission and a live wire. Got your cue lines and a handful of ludes . You wanna be there when they count up the dues..." -Bowie

Bad credit markets and lack of transmission lines/infrastructure can often have similar ill effects....but that does not mean that america's addiction to oil is not an effective pharmacutical, nor does it mean an alternative prescription is an ineffective remedy.

http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/energy/23817/

some believe the wind project plug was pulled because Pickens is a heavy investor in BP's wind fund, and owns water rights in the texas panhandle, which could benefit him personally if the wind project in texas moved forward, and by seeking another site without the conflict of interest was to bring integrity to his plan,

which at 83, he still campaigns for....and oh yes, natural gas can be synthesized from renewable sources, and he did purchase the 670 or so wind turbines now sitting and gathering dust....and he still keeps trying.

if one looks to government efforts to assist solar manufacturers as an arguement against the viability of solar verses oil,

one would also have to consider that present tax breaks to oil companies as well as value added services such as US Military escorts of all oil shipments to the US, even before 9-11, which the oil companies do not pay for.

If these were part of industry prices, the cost comparison of oil to solar would be very different, however, the american tax payer still pays for these costs, in a century where oil is not sustainable in the long term

true enough, solar has issues at scale, and at present, cannot meet current US demand. Solar none the less has many commercially viable applications.

with the loss of US manufacturers of solar cells, china's orders have spiked, making China much more technically savy to employ solar where it can, and if solar becomes capable of providing energy for a market of scale, China will have an infrastructure suitable for that transition because of its intermediate steps of employing solar in applications where it is practical today.

our nation is not doing this

and the south west is a good area to explore water and solar and renewable issues
and doing so has many benefits to boarder security issues and immigration issues as a consequence of good design

not a bad point lyle.

The economic free zones and NAFTA allowed companies to go to mexico...many heavy polluters and other things that were profitable, but not always for the public good.

in 1996, Suburban production started up in Silias Mexico and production in Janesville was reduced. Mexican workers were paid 4 dollars per hour, much less than the US counter parts. The price of the Suburban was RAISED 6,000 dollars. Free trade agreements helped companies move across boarders with less red tape and taxes.

if an american consumer went to Mexico to purchase a Suburban, could they get it at a lower cost too? NO. The cost was even more for the consumer, making the US costs a captive market.

Because of the profits made by the SUV production in 1996, the GM CEO took bonuses making 20 million per year, and pension of 5 million per year, even when GM's own R&D predicted 2020 to be the end of oil, and was working on the hydrogen car, the electric car for 2020 as oil would not be practical as per their estimates. But the GM CEO was planning to retire before 2000, leaving the mess he pirated to others, and many plants in Mexico are relocating to china now.

Development that is purely profit based does not always work.

Can you imagine how much WW 2 would have cost if every US supplier and CEO received a bonus check and a bail out?

The Poseidon desalination project at Huntington Beach California is interesting Jay. The desalination plant has a relationship with the encina power station. That power station takes electricity out of Orange county energy market for the water project to sell water at prices 30% higher than todays prices, and by decreasing the electrical supply, it will be able to raise prices in its own electricity market based upon supply and demand.

Bears Stearns holds the solar leases on the nearby federal lands, but will not develop them until 2020 when price projections are at their highest before prices force consumers out of the market place, leaving the area without any free market option other than gas or oil.

With American solar manufacturers out of the market, China's orders have soared and able to create intermediate energy infrastructures. It took 68 years for a can opener to come to the market place AFTER the wide spread use of the can. we can see why

If sustainable efforts in america's southwest were implimented, it would have beneficial effects on boarder security, the forces that drive economic refugees, create jobs, and have beneficial effects on immigration issues.

Lyle is correct. Business development in the economic free zones and through NAFTA have only been made to generate short term profits for businesses. Business exists to make a profit, but as in WW 2, free enterprize driven solely for profit does not always meet the needs of society.

the links I shared with you showed a distinct price point in electricity when solar is cost effective compared to fossil fuels, as well as describing other factors where the costs of solar off set other costs...ie. when lack of infra structure exists or remoteness of the site.

Several areas of the country are at that the price point, and businesses are expanding operations based on their own projections that are many times higher than todays prices, even in their short term markets.

I believe that answers your question on what solar is good for. It has reached the point where it is a good solution for some applications.

And I would agree with you jay on handing out tax incentives without a design plan.

I would say that if tax breaks to big oil are done in the same way as any other mining, that the tax incentive is handed out in a way to encourage business to develop in a way desired for reasons that may not otherwise be on a companys spread sheet such as encouraging a refinery in Texas City Texas to stay in operation, that these costs must be considered in the final price we pay at the pump regardless of how they are hidden in the tax bill.

I think we both agree we need to do something different even if we have different ideas on how to accomplish that. I am only suggesting that better development issues on energy and water in the southwest could improve immigration issues as a consequence, and that goal is outside the focus of private industry.

jay...when I design a consumer product as an industrial designer, I often have corporate leadership show me examples of what they want that clearly cannot work, and I will have engineers that will tell me things that have to be included that the CEOs do not want, and a legal department that will show me product liability lawsuits that prove what the engineers say cannot work, and receive marketing reports on consumer behavior that show everyone else is wrong, and feedback from focus groups that prove the marketing people are wrong.

If I take all these problems separately, I may create something that works but is like a frankenstein....maybe a working creature but maybe still a monster.

sometimes the approach taken by the Apollo project works....mission focused. to go to the moon, many advancements needed to be made in computers, intranets, materials advancements, mission coordination, engineering data, manufacturing efforts, etc. Sometimes an elegant solution results from a mission focused effort rather than trying to address each issue isolation.

If there were a missioned focused effort to address sustainable energy and water issues in america's southwest, boarder security and immigration would be part of the social capital equation, if included into a mission focused effort, beneficial changes would result. I suggest immigration would benefit from this type of strategy that is historically successful.

@paul peck....What I criticize, we as a nation focus on specifics and not on a comprehensive "bigger picture". As you have stated we have such a fragmented view that we are incapacitated by the details and all the special interests. We as a people have ignored one warning after another and probably will continue to turn a blind eye until it becomes a crisis. Based on the availability and distribution of natural resources, out nation is probably 2/3s larger in population than that which is sustainable. Globally our population could be sustained at about 1.5 to 2.5 billion. We are like a bacterial colony growing to the point where our own toxic waste and availability of food resources becomes a limiting factor to the growth and survival of the colony population. We can either address the problems voluntarily or forced to involuntarily deal with the consequences. One must confront the question, what price is survivability.

thats a good thing to criticize lyle.

One of the "Big Picture" things that I have an issue with is that North America has more arable land than any other nation. India is second and takes in more refugees each year than does the US. The US has more irrigated land than any other nation but the western aquifer is near collapse without careful management.
Some nations in the Middle East have mandated all food production and agriculture must be moved off their shores due to water shortage and an expanding world wide water shortage. China has invested in water recycling as has General Mills to meet their company's long term goals even though their plants are on the Great Lakes.

With the world population expected to double by 2050, and since agriculture and food processing are jobs that cannot be sent overseas, the US should be in a good position to create jobs here, create world commerce, and have great influence with food from the asian land masses to the middle east by mid century.

alas, wisconsin lost 12% of its farmland to McMansions now in foreclosure.
I believe technology can make small increases in efficiency that can have great effect. A 5% increase in effeciency in steam was enough to start an industrial revolution. Hiro of Alexandria invented a steam engine in 50 BC that was banned by the Emporer. "what will we do with all the slaves?" Hiro was asked. The perceived social consequences were too much. Even today we often have the same mentality

I totally agree with the point on social adaptation. there are many ways this has been accomplished in history.

Sometimes it is done through invention. sometimes it is done through other ways.