Why not vote in the Falk.....ing tax raiser from Madison? 14 consecutive years of increases! That will buy a lot of political bridges to nowhere.

Well, she's not a liar, check out this Politifact Wisconsin check on her statement about Walker's cuts to education being the largest in our state's history (True) vs. Scott Walker's statement that Gov. Jim Doyle approved the CAPCO program (Pants on Fire). Walker voted for it as an Assembly member.

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/

This is a tough one, C. Sanders, Should I vote for truth or more lies?

@Bren -

Falk LIED when she raised taxes above her own inflation index increase limit. But, I guess you forgot about that one, right? Not to mention her LIES about Walker's job creation record or the other LIES that I'm sure she told that simply haven't been exposed yet because of how low key of a player she's actually been in statewide politics. So, if you end up voting for Falk, you're still voting for LIES, aren't you?

The only way you'll be voting for truth is if you vote for Trivedi. Otherwise, with any major party candidate, you're merely choosing your preferred brand of poison, aren't you?

If you're going to hold the candidates to certain standards, the least you could do as an independent is be fair by applying those standards equally to both sides, don't you think?

Mr. Hoffa, links about Falk's "lies?"

Also, I ndoeed to hear more about Trivedi before investing more time in discussion about him.

The issue with mining is that the proposed legislation is based on insufficient understanding of the chemical composition of the ore. Based on studies of comparable soil in Minnesota (average pyrite content about 0.1%), the Penokee ridge could contain pyrite. "Processing for taconite would separate this pyrite into waiste tailings, where it would be vulnerable to oxidation...Even with this small concentration in iron ore has caused substantial increase in the sulfate load in local lakes and streams...there are currently no data, or at least no data that have been made publicly available, on the pyrite content of the unweathered shales in the western portion of the mine site. It appears likely that the eastward portion of the mine will encounter significant pyrite in its Tyler formation overburden." (Bavin & Berndt 2008). (In the samples taken, 1 and 2 were of weathered black shale sulfide and contained less than ca 2% pyrite, using available equipment. "Sample 3 was approximately 20% pyrite, as determined by x-ray fluorescence" {Ibid}).

"The sheer volume of Tyler Shale that will be exposed to oxidation means that even relatively low pyrite concedntrations in the shale could produce enormous amounts of oxidized sulpher...For example, at .5% pyrite, a cubic km of Tyler shale contains the equivalent of about 13 million tons of pure sulfuric acid, or about 10 billion gallons of sulfuric acid of car battery strength..."

"..The release of even a small fraction of this acid into the Bad River watershed could have grave environmental consequences. Moreoever, pyrite frequently contains substantial amounts of toxic trace elements, such as selenium and arsenic, which would be released during pyrite oxidation...The amount of Tyler shale that will be exposed by the mine, the pyrite and toxic trace element concentrations of that shale, the amount of sulfate that would be released into the Bad River watershed by iron mining operations currently are unknown, yet these are all scientific, not political, questions. And they are questions that could be answered with the right data...We do not know enough about the chemistry of the rocks that the proposed mine will uncover to decide whether the operation should be considered a sulfide or an oxide mine. However, available evidence points to potentially serious problems that could result from treating the Penokee mine as a simple oxide mine..."

Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald dismantled the Senate Select Committee on Mining Jobs, to fast-track legislation passed by the Assembly earlier. The public hearing on Feb. 17 was cancelled, but admitted yesterday that the bill currently in front of the Joint Finance committee "won't pass." The bill includes reductions in environmental protections and would prevent opponents from delaying projects by challenging DNR decisions in court.

Brad ... Great idea ! Why not start the digging in your back yard ?

That is a great idea. Pass a referendum for local support first, then decide yes or no. However, the resources don't belong entirely to the local residents and the benefits/impacts have further effects than just that area. Nonetheless, those are the people who choose to live there and this issue will affect them most directly.

Yep, let's put everything to a local vote and the delays to utilize your suggested consensus process after lawsuits, referendums to reverse, court decisions in support of the excluded over "districting" the vote .... Should get the first initiative going by 2187.

C. Sanders, you reaction seems rather quick and short sighted. Did you consider how long those resources have been in the ground and how many times the job market has been hurting? Many times over the locals could have shared their voices. In the future, there will be more opportunities. Having lost my job in 2008, I found that though the road to recovery is slow and painful, careful and thoughtful planning lead to better long-term decisions.

@Mike

Sorry to hear you lost your job in 2008. It is a very very bad job market out there. The issue I have with referendums is the time it takes to set it up, the ever present risk of lawsuits that would challenge the basis of the referendum which further delays the process, and the final risk that a Court order will overturn the results of the referendum anyway, in spite of the will of the people. Then we have to recognize whether any local community has the financial resources to launch, sustain and defend the referendum initiative.

Looks to me like it's a program to basically fast track potential sites for businesses interested in building here. How is that the same as the Obama style "shovel ready" stimulus programs?

The truth is: The Republicons have conceded the presidency by their latest actions and now must focus on saving the house and senate. I guess their obstructionist plan didn't work did it?
READY SET FAIL!

What does that have to do with this topic, Paul?

Totally unlike the Cindy Sheehan Democrats under Bush who opposed the Iraq war and the tax cuts in 2003 that resulted in sub 5 percent unemployment and real economic growth. If you want to see the net result of 40 years of liberal policy making go to Detroit.

Can't wait for November.

Adam: what's happening in November that excites you? Your party has already conceded the presidency.

Adam, what economic growth are you referencing here? Not the U.S., certainly. George W. Bush inherited a recovered economy in 2000 and left with what became the worst recession since the Great Depression. If you are referencing the U.S. economy, please provide some sourced data that contradicts all of my findings.

Bren, surely you've heard of the Clinton recession, the dot com bubble and 9/11? I know the media sycophants didn't call it the Clinton recession and George Bush didn't spend two years whining about the problems he inherited but should Bill Clinton get all the credit for spending the post-Soviet peace dividend, NAFTA, and welfare reform? I'm confident you'd like to blame the republican congress for some of those successes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_2000s_recession

Adam, Wikipedia really isn't a valid source of information but I clicked through your link to read the reference. I note the quote "Some economists in the United States object to characterizing it as a "recession," since there were no two consecutive quarters of negative growth."

Borrowing money to pay for the "tax refund" early in the Bush administration didn't help. Although I'm not sure how we got onto reviewing the Clinton administration, my view is that NAFTA deserves a close look. 9/11 was all George W. Bush. The incoming administration pushed back and ignored briefings about the growing terrorist threat, as well as security briefing and Homeland Security plan authored by Richard Clarke (commissioned by Clinton). A specific warning of terrorist activity provided by the FBI in August 2001 was ignored, and this coupled with a terrorist plan that targeted several of the most lax airports in the country helped bring about the tragic events of 9/11. That's not counting later denials about radiation at Ground Zero, sickening many workers, prematurely giving up body recovery, and equally egregious, flying members of the bin Laden family out of the U.S. before they could be questioned by the FBI, at a time when Americans were grounded.

I'd still like to see some data about how the tax cuts lifted the U.S. economy and stimulated "real economic growth." Because the data I've seen doesn't support this. The tax cuts, coupled with the Iraq War, created debt.

Are you a Troofer Bren? How can you endorse the most baying at the moon conspiracy theories but insist everyone else have three references to prove 2 + 2 = 4. Do you believe the Bush administration ignored specific warnings of terrorist activity in August, 2001 and 9/11 was all George W Bush? Seriously, the guy reading My Pet Goat to school children was a criminal mastermind in service to the military-industrial cabal? Every one of these lefty chestnuts falls apart with any exposure to reality.

The Presidential Daily Briefings in August, 2001, were not threat assessments and contained no specific, actionable intelligence, for example, that al Qaeda may use airplanes as missiles. They included a 1998 reference to the possibility of a hijacking and we had been hearing chatter since 1997 that OBL wanted to strike inside the US. On September 11, 2001 Bush had been in office for 233 days, he had retained Richard Clarke as NSC Coordinator and George Tenet as CIA Director from the previous administration specifically for their expertise in counter-terrorism and al-Qaeda not because he wanted to ignore them.

As for radiation at Ground Zero let me guess, Colonel Mustard with a nuke on the grassy knoll?

Here's what the 9/11 commission said about the Bin Laden family leaving the country while Americans were grounded:

First, we found no evidence that any flights of Saudi nationals, domestic or international, took place before the reopening of national airspace on the morning of September 13, 2001. To the contrary, every flight we have identified occurred after national airspace reopened.

Second, we found no evidence of political intervention.

Third, the FBI interviewed all persons of interest on these flights prior to their departures.

Time will tell what? How is attempting to remove obstacles to new building on the part of businesses anything like the "shovel ready" stimulus programs? On the one hand you're trying to expedite paperwork, essentially, to allow private industry to construct facilities, on the other you're pouring money into make work projects. There's no similarity whatsoever.

Hard to forget that $3.5 million shovel-ready turtle tunnel in Florida. I'll take this initiative over the BS shovel-ready stimulus waste any day.

$$andSense

And your point is???????

They don't have one so they're deflecting. They made an initial statement comparing this to Obama's "shovel ready" programs based on the use of the words "shovel ready" in the article without really thinking it through, apparently.

Then why not say that instead of stating this thing is like the Obama "shovel ready" programs, which it isn't? It's nothing like that. I think you just got caught with your pants down and now you're deflecting.

I deal with "gov't subsidized" programs every day. I don't know many folks who don't. So do you, unless you're boycotting the Post Office, for instance.

Stop squirming and just admit you didn't think through your first comment very well.

So, utilizing your expertise you claim to have acquired while sitting on some development board (I'm going to make that assumption since you're asking if we ever did), you came to the conclusion that this program, as described above, is the same as Obama's "shovel ready" stimulus programs? That's what you want to run with here?

I've had some interaction with similar organizations in relation to relocating a business from Milwaukee County to Waukesha County that involved building a new facility in a business park. Is that close enough for you?

Apparently you have some really great experience, that could add to the diologue, but remains shrouded in the supercilious replies.

See the next line. Since you don't seem to care to distinguish one "gov't subsidized" program from another, I threw that out there for you.

But how about you? You seem to be claiming some sort of experience in that regard? How about some specifics?

This goes back to the early '90s. I'll be happy to give you a short rundown on it.

But since, apparently, it's of no consequence unless ones name can be Googled and something comes up in the Business Journal or some such, how about you give me yours and I'll do the same?

What does something that has to do with something in early 90's have to do with the BS going down in 2012? Disco stunk it the 70's and no kid today ever heard of it. Lets get relevant.

How does any of this have anything to do with your inability to articulate the similarity you insist exists between this program of Walker's and Obama's "shovel ready" stimulus programs? Use your unverifiable expertise and answer a simple question, for crying out loud.

You got my real name. You Googled it as if that was some sort of indication of whether or not I've had dealings regarding TIF/BID development issues. I told you I'd be happy to relate my experience with them to you and asked for your name so I could attempt to check your qualifications as you attempted to check mine. Now we have to play 20 (make that 3) questions with you?

Again, give me your real name, let me Google it and we'll see just how involved you are. Anybody can play Q&A with readily available statistics. That proves nothing.

You've deflected this thing about as far as one could from the original topic with a bunch of nonsense you refuse to substantiate, while calling on others to do precisely that.

How about you just answer the original question rather than continuing to rub skid marks into your chair there. How is this program Walker's proposing in any way, shape or form like Obama's "shovel ready" stimulus packages?

C. Sanders, are you referring to this comment?

"Why not vote in the Falk.....ing tax raiser from Madison? 14 consecutive years of increases! That will buy a lot of political bridges to nowhere."

No. I am referring to the bombast coming from $$ANDSENSE as @BobMcBride has attempted to be civil and a gentleman.

Yup!

O ... Please don't stop now !

Joanie

Under that extreme condition that you construct, the jobs created do not serve the long term interests of Wisconsin and America. But, if we obstruct progress based upon extreme and hypothetical fears, then progress stops. Is that what you want?

Colonel Sanders,
I don't think it is extreme or hypothetical. This has happened elsewhere.

Here is a report from India:
http://www.assocham.org/events/recent/event_172/_vm_shastri_-_mines.pdf

One of those "hippy do gooder groups"
http://pdf.wri.org/mining_background_literature_review.pdf

Anywhere there is a mine, there are these problems. Removing protections and counting on businesses to look out for us is idiotic. I can't believe that you have been convinced that this is a good idea.

Say What?

Please don't cite any mining reference from India. Have you ever been there? I have, and it's a filthy hole. How about a responsible mining reference from Alaska?

http://www.alaskaminers.org/mcd06sum.pdf

In my writing, I do not advocate removing protections, but rest assured, that every self-respecting lawyer looking for billable hours will try his/her best to slow the process as long as they can bill their time.

How many support the decision of the CA Court to protect the Delta Smelt at the expense of over 50,000 jobs and multi-generational farms getting taken to dust?

Sanders,
Please don't cite studies from India? Why, because no matter where on earth the risk for mining Iron ore is the same? Yeah, I wouldn't want people to know that either if I was advocating for unrestricted mining for my profit. Not saying that you are profiting, but what you are doing is arguing for the opening of mining with loose environmental restrictions. I see that you claim that you dont advocate for the loose standards, but the elected officials that you support do.

The study you supplied talks about environment twice, tax environment and baseline studies. I doesn't talk about risk, it only talks about the benefit. I feel like I just got off a used car lot. Tell yourself all you want, the people in the mining areas probably feel different.

Say What?

Why not use some Russian studies or swoop on over over to Pakistan. You can't find relevant "current" information in the U.S., so you trek off to third world? A bit disingenuous, don't you think?

Sanders,
Here is the thing, science is relevant wherever it is on the earth. Turns out gravity, minus negligible changes due to elevation , is the same wherever you go on earth. The same can be said for mixing vinegar and baking soda. And, also, iron ore mining:
http://www.valdosta.edu/~tmanning/hon399/wally.htm

http://www.cas.umt.edu/econ/documents/Metals-Mining-Development-Central-America.pdf

http://www.lic.wisc.edu/glifwc/maps/Taconite_v2012-01-20a.pdf

http://geoscience.wisc.edu/~chuck/Geo106/lect26.html

http://www.forestry.umn.edu/prod/groups/cfans/@pub/@cfans/@forestry/documents/asset/cfans_asset_184726.pdf

Yeah, this is as irrelevant as http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Lx6QSRyCcn8/Tlsm9Icv1_I/AAAAAAAAAI0/bW0lavU0I-o/s320/Krebs+cycle_chemical+equation.jpg

Say What?

I will give you an A for Looking up the domestic references which support you anti-mining position. However, the research only concludes what is already known: the U.S. leads the world in the process to restrict environmental risks associated with mining.

Thank you for endorsing my position.

Um, no. The position that you have is that we should start some mines in Wisconsin. The position of those you support is that we should do so without "overly burdensome" regulations. I am completely unwilling to give manufacturers carte blanche with our environment, our government, and our people. I am sorry if you are willing to do so.

Say What?

So you are against all mining in Wisconsin [because you happen to live here], but you are content for mining to take place everywhere else so that you can continue get your share of mineral resources in order to live your life in relative comfort? A bit disengenuous don't you think?

I really am sorry that you are so dumb you don't get it. It isn't just about a mine; it's about profits without liability. But, you seriously can't grasp that. I would be against a mine anywhere which caused undue environmental damage without consequences for the ones causing it.

Wow, what a unique perspective. Why don't you tell us something that everyone doesn't already know? Google it Skippy and come back again.

You core position: "It isn't just about a mine; it's about profits without liability."

I'll make this easy for you. Name one U.S. company, industry or mine for that matter that currently operates without any liability, and is indemnified and held harmless for any act or consequential damages from its business operations?

Well, well, that should help to broaden your understanding of how things work in this Nation and that removed your stated concern.

Maybe this will help out with your understanding of this bill. Quit with sucking off the Fox news tit and start opening your eyes and mind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IIsxjvXCks&list=HL1329796087&feature=mh_lolz

You're out of your depth, Skippy. Thus, you resort to name calling and suggestion I Am a FoxNews follower. Save whatever self respect remains and move on.

PS: I am delighted you didn't offer another supporting reference out of India.

Ok, back to India. It is science. As for name calling, I called you dumb, because you are deflecting rather than addressing the issues, as you are deflecting now to the fact that I used science (uh, an Indian report) and called you dumb. As for your choice of news, or research (I know, that damn science thing), you haven't provided anything. Just a deep desire to have a mine in Wisconsin to provide "jobs" and LOTS of environmental damage.

Division and mistrust? We are speaking of the Whitehouse, huh?

Yes, Thurston, it is fortunate that support for the bill is now in flux, based on the evidence provided about levels of pyrite in the soil and the impact of unstable ferrous sulfite on the environment (acidity from runoff, sulphur). Another concerning issue is that Gogebic Taconite's parent company, Cline Group, doesn't seem to have a website.

Also, fines, violations, clean-up orders and stipulations against taconite mines in MN and MI cost nearly $10m between 2004 and 2011.

And so far you are dead on about the good paying jobs not going to workers in Northern Wisconsin. A quick review of the Gogebic Taconite's (GTAC) website reveals that top leadership, Bill Williams, President, was brought in from Cleveland, and J. Matthew Fifield, Managing Director, was brought in from Houston. Tim Myers, Engineering Manager, comes from West Virginia, Rob Boyd, Project Director, comes from Palm Beach, John Semo, CAD Operator, comes from Michigan, as is Elizabeth Lochinski, Administrative Assistant. So the "team" is already in place. The jobs that seem to be left (I surmise) are the ones closest to any toxic chemicals and workers comp claims, i.e., the low level, low paying jobs.

And without knowing enough about the soil composition, who knows how large the pocket of useful ore actually is? The company, and whatever jobs it brings, could be gone in a few years, leaving hideous scars behind. It's a "no" for me.

Thurston Howell

Thanks, but I and 147 are already ahead of you on this as we have all seen the seen this video. It only demonstrates another example of the benefit of the public hearing process.

Thurston, thank you for finding and posting this video! This issue is too important and needs to be kept at the forefront.

@OneTermYesWeCan2012 -

That's very interesting indeed, but I don't see what it has to do with Walker or the 'Ready, Set, Build' program.