@GearHead: obviously, you have been drinking or somehow modifying your brain, since you are lying to yourself and repeating the Randian Party line. If we were to create a Balanced Scorecard 4 America, it clearly would show that America is in much better shape today than when Obama and Biden took over the helm of the Ship of State from the corrupt regime of the Bush administration.
War-mongering and pandering to the uber-wealthy: interesting how the Republicans can smell the blood of war: what more could Romney and Ryan want: get another war started; pump up the factories producing war "stuff"; kill a few more people; and pocket the cash. All while creating a social contract of self-centeredness and selfishness. That is what Romney and Ryan are all about. Instead, Re-elect Obama. Let's re-invigorate the Judeo-Christian-Islamic social contract based upon Aristotelian and Augustine principles:The Good, Justice 4 all; Love for our neighbors, etc.
Yes, the choice really is clear. Re-elect and grow stronger. Sadly, here on patch is that there still is an awful lot of kicking the pebbles and looking down at one's feet. Obama and Biden have brought us light-years forward. They have accomplished a great deal, despite a very public Republican Pledge to do nothing; a pledge to stop American progress. We need to stay the course; re-elect Obama; and stand up for our political heritage in Wisconsin: we can do the nation a profound favor and reject Ryan twice.

Paul Ryan Lied Most in Debate, Fact Checkers Agree!

FactCheck.org
Ryan wrong on more than 6 claims.
Biden wrong on 3 statements.
http://factcheck.org/2012/10/veep-debate-violations/

Politifact
Ryan, 2 Mostly False; 1 False; 1 Lie of the Year. Total 4 Lies
Biden: 0 False; a few Half-truths (as Ryan also had)
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/oct/11/fact-checking-vice-presidential-debate-between-joe/

Romney-Ryan:
Lying because we are really good at it (and voters hate our REAL ideas)!

I think your problem with Patch, Nick, is that your lectures, offering no more substance than your opinions, don't get the kind of reception you think you're getting when you do whatever it is you do to students at UWM. If it makes you feel better, I pretend to look interested when I'm scanning one of your pieces of work here for anything new, interesting, informative, unbiased, scholarly, accurate or entertaining - despite coming up empty on all points repeatedly.

@Nick Poulos -

"If we were to create a Balanced Scorecard 4 America, it clearly would show that America is in much better shape today than when Obama and Biden took over the helm of the Ship of State from the corrupt regime of the Bush administration."

Let's look at the FACTS:

Job market participation is at the lowest level in the history of the nation.

Less Americans are working today than when Obama took office.

People who are working are making significantly less money.

More people on food stamps than ever before in our nation's history.

State unemployment funds are being depleted.

$6T in new Obama debt.

Cost of living (food, shelter, clothing, gas, etc) is significantly higher.

The Middle East is on fire with anti-American sentiment, and several Americans are dead, despite our President receiving the Nobel Peace Prize.

US credit rating downgraded for the first times in our nation's history.

This list could quite literally go on for pages and pages!

What world are you living in?

I can't believe that anyone could think that was normal behaviour. To be a raving clown and then be told that you won the debate? Some people never leave the playground!

> disrespectful! If kids interrupted their teachers,
Biden was the teacher, Ryan was the kid

One had class, the other was crass, which made him an.....yes, there was a kid on stage, but he was hidden under the disguise as a senior citizen who was passing.....

THE WHOLE THING IS QUITE SIMPLE HE WAS ACTING LIKE A LYING A$$HOLE BECAUSE HE IS ONE!

That's right Bren and Obama still had 4 more minuets. What Biden did was foul the wide reciver so he can’t get a touch down, it’s what happens when you have been beat

What an independent comment to make Bren.

@Bren -

Romney talked over Lehrer just as much as Obama talked over him. Not to mention that Lehrer forced Romney to fight for his time, because as it was, Obama received nearly 5 additional minutes of talking time over Romney.

We all know that you would prefer the debates to be little more than a free infomercial for the Obama/Biden campaign, as when confronted with the TRUTH, we all saw the results - a swing in the polls favoring Romney/Ryan!

How can a MORON like Biden do so well against the "intellectual of the Republican Party" Ryan?

Martha, that's a bizarre statement.

Dirk wrote: 'How can a MORON like Biden do so well against the "intellectual of the Republican Party" Ryan?"'

Easy Dirk, every time Ryan gets close to making his point you laugh or interrupt him !

@Anti-Alinsky - Yeah, Ryan, what a comic with his "facts" and policies. Let see, drastically cut taxes on the ultra-wealthy, raise the military budget, etc. and that will help balance the budget. Doublespeak can be hilarious.

Dirk Gutzmiller wrote: "...Let see, drastically cut taxes on the ultra-wealthy, raise the military budget..."

Obviously you listen no better than the other Liberals on this blog. Both Romney and Ryan said the lower tax RATES would be offset by reducing deductions, resulting in a wash.

As far as Defense Spending, you Libs are so intent on following Keynesian economic policies, why not on defense spending? That means the government would be paying for skilled labor rather than paying people to sit around and wait for their Obama-phone, or Obama-HDTV, or their Obama-vacation...

@Dirk -

Did you even watch the debate? Romney/Ryan are not proposing an increase to defense spending. They just don't want to cut the defense budget:

Rep. Paul Ryan: "So we're saying don't cut the military by a trillion dollars, not increase it by a trillion, don't cut it by a trillion dollars."

If you're having a party and want to make sure there's some life in it, you invite your ole crazy uncle.

If you have some serious business to attend to and you have a choice between your ole crazy uncle and the upstart kid from the "Wonky Ivory Tower", you choose the kid.

The days of laffin' 'n' scratchin' our way through things are long gone.

I honestly don't care about how many interruptions there were, whether or not the moderator controlled the situation (she did a better job than Lehrer, she seemed pretty even handed to me). But crazy ole uncle does about nail it. The question is, who does the mushy middle (assuming they even care about VPs that much) prefer handling the affairs of state? Even though this thing did fall in the middle of primetime viewing, I'm not sure I'd be so presumptuous as to suggest they were won over by the stereotypical crazy ole uncle character, just because its one they've seen repeatedly on the kind of faire that ordinarily occupies the time slot.

Yea, that taking "the academically trained kid to the woodshed" reminded me of the Packer/Seahawk game. Uncle Joe committed personal foul after personal foul by interrupting Paul Ryan time and again. He may have pumped a little life into Barack Hussein Obama's base, but most of the independents I talked to now understand why the Jack Ass is the symbol of the Democratic party.

Ole crazy uncle language. Lyle thinks that's what America wanted to hear.

Actually, I think the Dems are just relieved Biden managed to get through this thing w/o asking someone in a wheelchair to stand up, or some such. He should be given credit for that. Other than, apparently, a bit of confusion on how he voted in the past (gotta love that ole crazy uncle), about his only glaring stumble was getting hung up on what he meant by "stuff" when Raddatz quizzed him on it - and Ryan bailed him out by suggesting "it's Irish".

@WEACHATER... What we see is the guy who is sitting at the kitchen table sharing his opinion. That's connecting.

With who, Lyle? Seriously, you think Joe Average prefers to have the guy who sits at his kitchen table (a neighbor, an "ole crazy uncle", his brother-in-law, etc.) a heartbeat away from the presidency? That's being a bit elitist, is it not? Poor dumb average folks can only relate to the ole crazy uncle. That "Wonky Ivory Tower" stuff - that's just too darn confusing for them average clucks. Heck, that's why we got Biden in the first place. Need someone the average folks can relate to when the guy at the top of the ticket starts talking his "Wonky Ivory Tower" talk that'll confuse 'em.

And the last time the crazy old uncle was the VP candidate:

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/joyride-with-perot/2870

I'll have my Tivo set to record SNL. It will be just a little re-work on this bit.

Surprising how the anti-intellectuals from the ultra-rignt were rooting for the "intellectual" Ryan (if you call a bachelor's degree from Miami of Ohio qualifiying to be called that, but that must be the best the Tea Party can muster), and calling foul when the Lyan' Ryan was beaten down by Biden's righteous indignation.

And does Ryan even have emotions, or is he that cold and into pumping magic numbers into his voodoo economics?

Ha Ha Ha. With all due respect, that is a bunch of malarkey. Because not a single thing Dirk said was accurate.

JB - Why isn't it accurate, or are you just going to do the hyena laugh over and over?

@Dirk
It is. (Laughter.) We Irish call it malarkey.

JB - Ah yes, the O'Schmidts were a prominent family from Glocca Mora. Any relation to Obama, who has Irish roots?

Obama is as Irish as Elizabeth Warren is Native American!

J.B. im sure Lyle and Dirk are sitting at their kitchen tables right now, laughing, and rolling their eyes, and interrupting the empty chair next to them. Im sure in their little minds Paul Ryan is sitting next to them. This is what too much LSD does to the brain.

Already we have ultra-right Republican commenters saying they would have "smacked [Biden] in the back of the head and then asked how funny it is now." And then we have the same ilk thinking Biden came on too strong. Biden was aggressive, yes, what did you expect given Romney's approach in the first debate.

Can't have it both ways.

@Dirk
Incredible (chuckle). I don't know what world you guys are in.

@Dirk Don't Democrats know how to act in public places? If not, it means sad upbringing. Biden is no one to emulate, that is for sure. Dirk, it is called civility. That is your new word for the day.

@J.B. - The real world J.B. As I recall, you adamantly believe that the world was literally created only several thousand years ago. What kind of mythological dreamscape do you profess as your "world"? Get out on the street and away from your kitchen table.

Dirk all I can say is WOW.

I'm surprised no one said this earlier. The commentator could have put a stop to it from the beginning.

This is what I've been waiting to hear. The moderator could and should have put a stop to it from the beginning.

JCan - Maybe one of those NFL substitute refs for debate moderator?

weacHATER - Is that your kid's photo you are are using? And you have put HATER in your screen name. Nice combo. And you feel so sorry for that babe in the woods Ryan being beaten by that street-smart, working class Biden?

You just wish you had fightin' Joe on your side.

Working Class Biden? OMG you ARE on LSD.
Biden would die if he had a real job, imagine his boss telling him he has to follow rules: That jackass smirk would get him fired.

@Craig - You have a couple of silver spooners on the Republican ticket. Barry and Joe lived the real life the rest of us live. Yes, even working class, not using prominent family connections to get to drive the Weinermobile as a "job".. .

Dirk: Seeing as how you are on a first name basis with the two jackasses Barry and Joe; please tell me what real job either one of them have had?
If you think either one give a rats ass about the typical American, you are high.
But seriously I would like to know what their real working class jobs were?
You do not think a weiner mobile driving job qualifies, so what does?

Craig - I was talking about the way Barry and Joe grew up. The way I grew up. You know, how most of us grew up, even how you grew up, unless you are a failed silver spooner now pathetically spending your time on Patch instead of the halls of corporate life, public service, etc. You betray yourself and your past if you throw in with the uber wealthy. But there are sellouts in every classification of mankind.

Well see now Dirk, that is where we differ. I do not feel underclassed or sub par just because someone's wealth and silver spoon child rearing make us different.
Barry likely got a free education because of his foreign status, so how the hell can he identify with American's and college debt, paying a mortgage, etc?
This is when kids become adults, when they start dealing with the shit that comes with being an adult. Having everything handed to you because you were not born here teaches you absolutely nothing.

So Dirk; you must feel you got rights because you were born to a disadvantaged family? You should have free college for your kids, not have to pay your mortgage, food, and utility bills?
Now I understand why you like Obama. When this Country is full of 100 million Robin Hood types, there will not be any rich people to give to the poor. Then what?
Talk about eliminating the middle class. Everyone but the wealthy will be living in the projects. Yeah that sounds like the America Obama's dad wished for.

@Itzenhuiser - Maybe a sign outside their homes like "PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE HUMANS"?

This ends today's lesson on historic Christian principles, until apparently now.

Excellent lesson- too bad Dirk didn't finish 8th grade or he may see the irony.

@Mike Itzenhuiser --

1) People are not animals

2) There is natural forage to be had for the animals. Jobs for the human beings are in short supply, especially jobs that let a person feed their family without a little help from food stamps.

@Mike I: are you and your cohort of the opinion that all non-"Republicans" are "animals"? I would guess that is the Randian way. An immoral ethics if ever there was one. The Romney Ryan way. pretty ugly, sad, fear-based, self-centered.
As to our recovery, Check your facts: If we were to install a Balanced Scorecard (BSC) approach, a dashboard across multiple dimensions, the choice would be pellucid: Obama has delivered despite the adversity of Republican obstructionism and fear-mongering and lies.
We need to stay the course; we've come so far: handing the helm for our Nation's Ship of State over to Romney would be an appalling decision for America on many levels, significant among which would be economic disparity among us. the last time the Bush's took the helm, the rudder fell off; the control panel burned out and needed replacement; and, the propeller fell into the deepest part of the ocean.
You can lie to yourselves about this, or concede.
At its core,however, isn't this election about the social contract between citizens of this nation with one another as well as how we vow to comport ourselves with the rest of the world and then how we will be received by the rest of the world?
Neither party has all the answers. Each side has to reach across and begin to co-operate. Compromise, co-operation, and working together to co-create a sustainable future for all is the morally better choice for Justice, for the Good, for us All: isn't it.
Stay the Course:Re-elect Obama.

@CentralScrutinizer...Don't be so naive; Iran may be radical, but their not stupid. Right now Iran is suffering because of the embargo. Their own citizens are dissatisfied with the ayatollahs and the leadership is going to have to decide if having nukes are worth the continuation of the embargo. Let's keep things real.

I'm sure the Average American who wants his ole crazy uncle occupying the on-deck circle for the Oval Office saw nothing wrong with Biden laughing like a hyena during the discussion of Iranian nukes - but I must say I'm a little surprised at you, Lyle. So you don't think we should take the threat seriously? It's a laughable discussion for you as well?

I'm guessing that if you were at a gathering of Westies and the topic of Iranian nukes came up and you burst out laughing, the rest of the folks gathered at whomever's kitchen table you might be at at the time might be a bit taken aback.

C'mon. You guys are REALLY stretching it here. Biden managed not to be the gaffe-master general and that is commendable, but the guy did NOT endear himself or the ticket to the mushy middle in anything remotely resembling a noticeable fashion. He looked nuts and your own description of him as an "ole crazy uncle" confirms that. Just be thankful that it's a) the VP debate we're talking about here and b) he didn't do any further damage. That really was the best you could hope for from Biden, and you got it.

Biden did gaffe though - he changed Obama's tax plan from increasing taxes on those earning $200k (individual) $250k (joint) to increasing taxes only on those earning $1M or more annually.

Is that a promise that we can take to the bank? Oh, wait, the WH already said that Biden was full o' crap on that point. Shame that the WH wouldn't also admit all the other points that Biden was full o' crap on throughout the evening!

@Beth -

What did Ryan lie about exactly?

Biden lied about Libya, Iran, voting against the Iraq and Afghan wars, Obama's tax plan, Romney/Ryan's plan, the Obama/Biden record, etc.

@Beth -

Apparently, you've been misled about Romney's/Ryan's plan. Hoffa suggests that you look at the plan without the filter of liberal bias.

Lay off the liberal kool-aide - it's definitely warping your brain!

Biden could have acted like a mature respectable adult. Not like a child making faces, laughing loudly and interrupting out of line.

'I'm not sure what these two men could do to win in the eyes of the usual conservative commentators here"

Maybe actually tell the truth!

mau - Obama acted like a mature respectable adult, Presidential, and was pilloried by critics.The world has changed, m'lady.

@Randy1949 -

What Ryan misstatements exactly? Ryan was lucky to actually make a point before being cut off by Biden when it wasn't Biden's turn to talk. Romney played by the rules and never interrupted Obama during Obama's time.

mau - Biden was in debate mode, and even more so to show Dems have the moxie after Obama was criticized for being too gentlemanly and statesmanlike.
Romney was prep school bully who cut the hair off an apparently gay classmate. And frankly, I think tough Joe knows a lot more about being a President than St. Paul of Janesville.

Obama wasn't being gentlemanly and statesmanlike. He didn't even have the respect for his opponent to pay attention to what he was saying.

I hope that all the schools use the debate in their classrooms when they are teaching the students to respect others by listening to and not laughing and making fun of others when they are talking.

Biden was in ridicule and attack mode.

weacHATER - Your picture of the outraged kid at the family picnic when they ran out of ice cream at the family picnic is emblematic of the current Tea Party. Good choice.

@Dirk -

That's the stupidest thing that Hoffa's read this entire week - congratulations!

@John Feia -

Obama and Biden lied more than Romney and Ryan did!

@J.B. Schmidt...You started out as a Christian by choice?

@JB - You mix Christianity with Social Darwinism. I just do not get your vision. It seems like a nightmare.

@Lyle and Dirk
So all this bluster I keep hearing, all this loose talk what are they talking about?

Now, let me tell you, my record stands for itself. I never say anything I don't mean. Everybody knows whatever I say, I do.

@lyin' morninmist -

Ryan voted against the stimulus - he's never denied it. The stimulus passed anyway, despite his objection. As a representative of his congressional district, Ryan has a duty to his constituents to advocate for receipt of federal funds when they're being handed out. There's no hypocrisy here. Just bad policy and more debt from the Dems!

@JRH....Sometimes I worry about your mental health.

@Lyle -

What is that supposed to mean - you don't think that Hoffa could be President?

@JRH...Nope! You don't play well with others.

@Lyle -

It's true, Hoffa doesn't play very well with others. But neither did Jesse Ventura, and he made it work for him in Minnesota.

If Hoffa ever did run, he'd have to do it as an independent.

@Bren -

Thanks for wasting Hoffa's time - that article is a joke! It's mostly premised on hearsay from so-called 'experts' and academics, while at the same admitting that nothing is known for sure or supported with primary source factual evidence.

This is trash journalism and a smear/hit piece if Hoffa ever saw one.

A true independent would see right through this piece for what it truly is - biased propaganda!

So how come you, as a self-declared independent, insist that "all should read?"

When it comes to politics, Rolling Stone is as far left as Mother Jones!

Once again proving that Bren = lefty liberal stooge parading as an independent.

Absolutely Hoffa. It's loaded with phrases like:
"...impossible to say for sure..."
"...He's not quite denied that..."
"...could explain..."
"... driving speculation..."

Ya gotta love an article loaded with such solid facts.

@WEACHATER...Are you still in middle school?

@WEACHATER -

That's not very cool! Please try to show some respect. Lyle is good person - his ideas are just wrong. If you really want to insult Lyle, challenge his ideas by providing an analysis showing how his ideas are clearly wrong. But please, drop the pointless name-calling and character attacks - it's wholly unbecoming of 'our' side!

@JRH...Thanks.

WEACHATER, Lyle's views may be misguided (OK, wrong), but he is one of the few Liberals who doesn't go around name calling.

@WEACHATER...If you must label me, I prefer to be labeled as a social democrat, it's much more descriptive of my actual politics.

@Carolo -

Romney was no rougher on the moderator than Obama was - and the moderator forced Romney to fight for his time because as it was, Lehrer gave Obama an additional 5 minutes of talking time over Romney. Had Romney not fought for his talking time, the debate would have been little more than an Obama re-election infomercial, which you probably would have preferred. Also, Romney didn't interrupt Obama during his time, as Biden frequently interrupted Ryan during his time.

Biden was actually given nearly 3 additional minutes of talking time over Ryan by the moderator, not including his interruptions, laughing, snickers, etc. Thus, there was no reason for Biden to act like an @ss other than to show his true colors.

If you can't see the difference, well, that's pretty sad, isn't it?

@morninmist -

Mitt is not exploiting the death of Ambassador Stevens. He's merely pointing out the flaws in Obama's administration, the same way you guys did to Bush when it become known that Saddam really didn't have any WMD's.

Perhaps Obama/Biden should stop extolling bin Laden's death for political gain, as Hoffa is certain that bin Laden's family would not be pleased with such exploitation. Where's the media reports of how bin Laden's family feels about his exploitation for political gain by Obama/Biden?

Once again, the left/Dems show their hypocrisy and how they're clearly targeting the low-information, non-thinking voter!

ROMNEY/RYAN/THOMPSON 2012!!!

Hey Hoffa

Go talk to the Ambassador's father.

...........

James R Hoffa

3:18 pm on Sunday, October 14, 2012

@morninmist -