If the ongoing debate was still about the pension and insurance contributions from public workers, I'd agree. Didn't you catch the news that the Dem's and their union supporters had agreed to the higher $$ deductions four days before the 14 left Madison? Walker had won, but continued to pick other fights anyway.

Bren, lets get real for a second. First, you say the rail project would have created 4500 jobs...yes and no...4500 short term jobs...70 permanent jobs. Not worth the money! Second, what 21,000 state jobs are you talking about? Third, as far as jobs created...25,00 so far and counting!! (get your facts straight) Next lets tackle the issue of ART...Milwaukee County Executive Chris Able just canceled an art thing at a cost of $100k as well..no mention here though! You are just spewing crap on here. Take to the union hall where they still care!

All the extra money thats going to be coming out of state employee paychecks is going to reverberate on mainstreet. These folks are not going to have as much money to spend and all those mainstreet republican busnesses are going to wonder why their sales revenues and profits have gone down. All those tax breaks for wealthy corporations are coming right out of the pockets of middle class people and poor people. Walker has put into a race for the botton. He is no friend of Wisconsin, but a wolf in sheeps clothing. There are not many people who are willing to sell out their own state, but Walker is one and the Koch Bros. and their ilk are happy to finance the task.

A victory for who Duane? You may have an ideological victory for you and your corporate masters but the State of Wisconsin is the loser. Business will feel the loss of dollars in our local economy and you will try to blame it on Obama, but the truth of the matter is that selling out the state of Wisconsin and not even taking bids is not governance. We will be able to watch as the fruits of your ideology bloom in our future, we may not be so happy with what we see.

Thanks for the playground insult..... kind of proves my point. :)

Again, show us the facts of your statements. Where is the prof? Why do you lefties keep spewing rhetoric without proof? All the talking points in the world will not help your cause. When you can prove your points please do so until then your remarks are irrelevant.

Duane, my information source here is the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. I understood the 4,500 jobs represented 1-2 years of employment, which is nothing to sneeze at in the midst of a near-depression. I also understood the number of permanent jobs to be closer to 150. Every good paying job is a blessing in this economy. What "25,00" jobs has Scott Walker created? Are you giving him credit for the results of national efforts to improve the economy? Hm.

Also, since you obviously missed the many weeks of coverage about the Blue Shirt art project, the difference between projects is that payments had been made to the artist for the Blue Shirt project which would not be returned if the contract was cancelled. Further, the signed contract called for an additional payment to the artist if the contract was cancelled. The total cost to Milwaukee County because of Scott Walker's poor math skills was $100,000+. Do you honestly believe Chris Abele would do something this irresponsible?

Truth is not crap, my friend. And rudeness doesn't change facts. Also, none of what I said has anything to do with unions. You still haven't figured out that your extreme ire about public unions started right around Feb. 12, 2011, when the budget "repair" bill was simultaneously rolled out by Scott Walker and the Koch brothers (look up what form of government is the marriage of government and corporate interests). Interesting.

first of all bren, it was only about 14 months of work, and it wasn't new jobs. The work would have been done by the railways employees. Next, there were no new jobs created by doyle or obummer...sorry. I do know that there are at least three companies that have recently moved and one company is hiring because of Walker (the company i work for was waiting to see if Scott won, we are now hiring) As far as blueshirt goes..that was another travesty left behind by ament the idiot! enough said there! Chris Abele is as bad as ament was...watch and see!!! And as far as my ditatste for union hacks goes...that has been life long!! they sucked then and they still suck now! You liberals can't stand loosing can you....always going back to the Koch brothers...too funny...what about George Soros? Do you support him? Do you even know him? If you went and protested in Madison you enjoyed his money?

Bren, I was under the impression that public workers ARE compensated for their work. My objection with state workers has to do with the structure of their compensation. Times have drastically changed in the private sector since 1970 - where private and public sector comp was more comparable. Collective bargaining in the last 40 years stepped up public comp. But in the more competitive private sector (middle wage earner non-union jobs), pensions were replaced with 401k matches and workers shared more of the cost of health care, including co-pays and deductibles. And retirement ages went up (vs public sector going down). So what our newly elected officials are trying to do is to correct the inequalities of compensation that have arisen over the last 40 years - to be more fair to taxpayers.

Unlike the public sector, where jobs are pretty much guaranteed, regardless of the economy, those of us in the private sector work within a different set of conditions - where job security is at an all time low. Most of us in the private sector have had to fund our own retirement - a huge diversion of our take home pay. The recent recession took a good bite out of that. But public workers?? Not so. They can retire early and have a guaranteed pension awaiting them - which in most cases begins way before age 65. This inequality is most vexing to those of us taxpayers who have to fend for ourselves in our retirement years.

How proud you must be. But you don't have to explain yourself to us. You do know that being "extremely wealthy" doesn't entitle you to respect. People will be judged by how they treat other people. I'd be worried.

Right Aaron, sure you are.

A real business wouldn't hire just because the owner has a few, and I mean a few, dollars from a tax break. A real business hires people because they have real customers walking through the door.

So far we haven't seen that this will be case under Walker. It was laughable that he was taking credit for jobs that his policies didn't help create, because until yesterday he had no policies in effect.

On top of that, with all the salary cuts to public employees, watch the economy slow down Workers are workers no matter if they public or private sector employees.

Already we are seeing a slowdown in hiring in this state, largely because the GOP in Congress has body blocked the stimulus that this economy still needs. Doesn't look good for our mouth breathing nukbskull of a governor.

Business owner? My ass.

At what cost to public education, our seniors and disabled citizens, Bill?

Tax rates are the lowest since the 1950s. Exxon pays nothing and gets subsidies after posting record profits. Now Grandma will be paying $95 for a bottle of cough syrup. And disabled adults will no longer get assistance in helping them lead independent productive lives.

Shame on Walker and all his cronies. Recalls are coming.

Public education will be just fine because of the passage of the budget repair bill. The cuts will be offset, something Democrats do not understand. Also, this budget increases spending. More than the previous biennium...meaning more money is appropriated towards medicare and other programs for the poor. The tax rates can stay where they are. If more jobs are created, more taxes will be collected... something Democrats do not understand. As far as recalls, the senate will not be flipped. As far as my Senator, I know Alberta Darling will win.

No Bill, public education will suck in this state because people would make great teachers will find better paying jobs elsewhere. You of course are too dense to believe this, but teachers are underpaid versus what others who have college degrees are making.

Something conservatives don't understand among the much they don't understand is that the cuts in this budget will not create jobs, but lead to fewer jobs.

A 4 yr degree does not guarantee a certain paycheck. Its supply and demand and teachers are a dime a dozen.

Bill! The Wisconsin 14 telecommuted every day. I thought Alberta Darling barricading herself into her office to hide from her constituents was shameful. Mary Lazich not responding to constituent calls is shameful. Paul Ryan claiming that he was elected to "lead" and the "polls will follow" instead of paying attention to what his constituents need is shameful. I guess it depends on your viewpoint.
And remember that the claims about damage to the State Capitol turned out to be minimal, despite original claims from the Governor's Office that the repair estimate was what--like a million dollars? That was shameful posturing.
As I have said elsewhere, I am deeply concerned about this budget because of Scott Walker's past record of costing Milwaukee County money. In each of those instances, a little more research, and a little more respect for the people trying to advise him would have prevented those expensive mistakes, some of which we are still paying. From what I have seen and heard (including having to move the budget signing location at the 11th hour), things just aren't being thought through the way they should. And we're not just talking about money here--children's education, care for disabled and elderly people, jobs, and so much more are on the line here, for millions of people. There's just no room for expensive experiments and/or errors in this economic climate.

Aldo, the public school system around here already sucks!!!

See what I mean in my post above?

Go ahead and call me stupid and a liar and make your idiotic threats to censor me. Walker's budget calls for $500 million in cuts to Medicaid programs and puts an enrollment cap on the Family Care program. You know this is true. You don't care because it most likely doesn't affect you.

The citizens of Wisconsin will have the final say on this matter.

I will not encourage further "trolling" by you on this matter. Have a great day.

Shannon, read the damn bill...it has spending INREASES for Medicaid!!!! As far as the cap on family care????? Show the proof or stop trying to scare old people and poor people!!

Duane I hope you are not close to retirement age and need senior programs. I have a senior (96) who has payed his own way all his years. In the last 2 years he has used up his life savings and was going to apply for family care. Family care assists you in paying your rent and medical expenses after you have used up all your money ( savings, 401k, sold house, payed all your own medical bills). He planned for the future but didn't expect to live this long. Family care costs the state under 2,500 per month, they take what income you have each month to contribute to your bills (SS & pension) you are given about $80. a month for personal needs. Walker has suspended family care for 2 YEARS. That means instead of a senior apt. and contributing to expenses, when his money is gone he will have to go to a crapy nursing home which will cost the state over 5,000. per month! How is this saving the state money and helping seniors? He has never had any state or government assistance in his lifetime , he worked all his life, lived through the depresion and never spent his money foolishly. Perhaps Walker should rethink some of the programs and money that is given to young healthy people who are given assistance and are to lazy to work to acheive their own goals!!!

Me too...November for hunting and a Republican win in the Senate race and a new President, and January for a 1 year anniversary party for Gov. Walker!!

Walker will be celebrating one year in office and we'll have a new President in January 2012? What country are you living in?

Thanks for the link Happy. Enjoyed the program. The last few minutes were the most telling for me where Olson says he tried to moderate the republicans. The irony is that he and others like our Harsdorf knuckled under to walker's disingenuous steam roller. If they had had the guts to stand up to the little dictator we wouldn't be where we are in Wisconsin today.

I really enjoy "This American Life" and I consider Ira Glass the best storyteller in the country right now. The show's examination into Wisconsin as "a house divided" was great listening, no matter which side of the aisle you sit on.

It's a telling story, Ted, for both sides. I, too, noted the vignette that has Luther Olsen, on the day Walker announced his full intentions, but,

"The Republican even called Walker’s idea radical. But eventually, under a lot of pressure, Luther caved, fell in line with his party and voted with the governor."

Do you suppose Sen. Harsdorf thought the same thing, maybe that she said as much behind closed doors? I have to believe she thought the plan was...ahem...outrageous... from the start, but that she caved like Olsen did?

To my memory, flawed as it is, Luther Olsen is the only GOP incumbent who's claimed to not know ahead of time that his own party was going to run their own in Dem primaries, to the tune of $400k. I actually felt sorry for Sen. Olsen by the time the story was done.

The one glaring fault in the story, from here, is that they didn't identify Kim Simac as the GOP Tea Party candidate running against Holperin. Whodathunkit, NPR failing to "out" a Tea Party gal for her affiliations. I'm told she scares the bejeesus out of the northwoods GOP establishment.

But the part of the story that was, to me, golden, was: (continued...)

...(continuation)

"Wisconsin is a big rural state, but it’s not conservative. It’s politics are in the middle, leaning a little toward the left. Organized labor has a long history in the state, and Wisconsin’s gone Democratic since every presidential election since Reagan. But, bottom line, it’s moderate--polite and civil and moderate. That, right there, is really the break that Scott Walker has made. His plan, whether you love it or hate it, was a big move away from the middle. He’s pulled a pretty moderate state dramatically toward the extreme and done something they don’t do in Wisconsin. He’s picked a fight. And he’s forced a lot of people who don’t like to fight to choose sides anyway."

Amen

@Happy: Please be mindful of copyright and intellectual property. Perhaps there's a transcript you can link to.

Not making this up now....

I've asked a couple of my Republican friends if there isn't anybody inside that party who might have the...<cough>...spine...to bring the party back to the "Big Tent" rehtoric of days gone by.

They both just shrugged, rolled their eyes and grined at my stupidity. One of them said he isn't voting on July 12, but both will be in August.

I would think that there would not be a problem since your earlier post had the link which contains the audio of what you said.
Regardless, a great exemplification of what is happening here. The fixation with the "dems" "reps" "righties" "lefties" type of rhetoric seems to be keeping the whole from examining the issues at hand with an objective eye. This is only my opinion but I think that one of the most important roles that a governor of a state has is to help cultivate an environment for everyone that reduces the rhetoric and allows the issues to be examined based on their merits. In this I feel that Scott Walker has failed. Worse than that, it seems that he refuses to even consider such a failure, mush less act on it. Again, just my opinion...

Well said, Keith. Since 1975, the cost of education in this country has gone up 150%. However, student performance has actually DECREASED. What does this tell us?? Simply this: teachers unions, through their powerful lobbies and ability to control local elections - staffing boards of education everywhere with their supporters- have been bludgeoning the public for decades, for their own self-serving purposes. Meanwhile, for all this added cost of education, we have less educated and prepared generations of children. What Gov Walker, Gov Christie and other governors have recently accomplished, under loathsome demonstrations and behavior from selfish unionists, is admirable. Unions and your idealistic supporters, America has caught on to your schemess, and is arming itself to level the playing field, such that this legal extortion of taxpayer money will be a thing of the past in short order.

Keith Best must be doing well to love this horrible budget from Madison. I can only guess that "Baby, You're a Rich Man!"

Oh my god, always the same from you people. If I am poor and disabled and a teach and etc I would be thanking all the Corporations for giving me the perks I get. The goverenment does not create money or jobs they take it from those with money to those who have less or none in the name of fairness and then hope they can get enough people recieving handouts and benifits to then feel like they have to vote for them again to get more stuff. The rich and business just want to get the government out of their way.

@Mark --what perks do the poor and disabled get from corporations? The purpose of a corporation is to make money. Some people feel a government ought to be run that way too, but they're wrong. The purpose of a government is to serve the needs of every citizen, not just the 'productive'.

People who back the corporations do so in hopes that they will receive a decent salary and benefits from them -- that they may be among the lucky ones who keep their jobs, prosper, and get to keep more of what they have.But it hasn't really worked that way for the past thirty years. Just look at America's vanishing middle class.

Of course the rich and big business want to get the government out of the way so they can keep on doing what they do.

Just remember,

All the money you guys whine about for education and etc does not come from the government. I find it scary most who complain do not grasp this point. Rich and private sector business provide most of the tax revenue that poor and teachers and all the other groups that feel this income redistribution should benefit from because god for bid someone owns a construction company and makes 500 thousand a year and employs people who make 50 to 70 a year. You really should go back to school but this crap gets taught there in the first place.

You really need to go out and try working for yourself and paying others salaries and you will realize that you have a very sku'd point of view of what the REAL world is all about.

Aw Jeez, when will you liberals quit whining are accept the fact that government is just not for you only!! Poor, disabled, teachers.......same old song and dance. Such hardship. I agree we need to take care of the poor and disabled....in a manner that helps them help themselves. Problem is: the way our programs are administered, they create PERMANENT welfare situations for millions. And for the love of might, I am so sick of the "pity our teachers" cry!! What a classy genre - especially their antics in Madison in Feb and March. What has happened to this once venerable profession?? I'll tell you - greed, entitlement, arrogance for starters. Shut up and get back in the classroom and be thankful you have a good paying job, for heaven's sakes. And start behaving like adults instead of children!! If you want respect, start acting like you deserve it.

Elaine....fabulous!! Well presented. I applaud your point that "elections have consequences". When Wisconsin elected Gov Walker and Republican majorities in the Legislature, it wasn't a direct response to the campaigns of these individuals. It was a total REPUDIATION of eight years of repressive governance of the Doyle/Democrat/Union agenda in Madison. Walker and the new Republican legislators did not have to openly convey their intentioins if elected. By virtue of their character, integrity and concern for ALL Wisconsin taxpayers, their election was an absolute must - to save this state from runaway spending, borrowing and continued corruption. So those of you on the left, who criticise Gov Walker for not showing his hand in his campaign - get a life. Your fate was sealed through the machinations of the previously aforementioned axis of evil that controlled the state gov't for the last 8 years. You reaped the benefits of that period, and those of us who adamantly resented this usurpation of our government remained civil. Now take your medicine like adults!! It's our turn now!!

Interesting political theory in a republican democracy, Mr. Marshall, in a Machiavellian sort of way. Elections shouldn't need to reflect an honest response to what candidates actually say (or don't say) when they're asking for our trust. They "did not have to openly convey their intentions if elected." Hmmmm.

What happened to..."governments are instutued among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed?" Doesn't that at least imply that we know what we're consenting to when we give our consent?

After all, we're coming up on the Fourth. Time to check the owner's manual of this little experiment, perhaps?

Oh Please Sam,
The Koch Bros. reference is getting so old. They spent $43k on helping GOVERNOR SCOTT WALKER get elected. George Soros spent over $2 million on trying to keep GWB re-elected and continues to spend big bucks on left-wing causes like Media Matters and others. Koch Bros. employ over 50,000 people including high paying union jobs. That puts alot of roofs over people's heads and food on the table. They also donate $$ millions to Sloan Kettering Memorial Cancer Research Center. Knowing all this, I'd like to ask you, who is spinning whom?

SAM, I respect your comments so much. Some folks don't want to be reminded about the Koch brothers and their extreme right-wing agenda in our state and others. As you probably also know, the Koch brothers have also cut jobs at their operations in our state. Charitable contributions are great because they provide a nice tax break for very rich people. So it's no surprise that the Koch brothers give money to charity. I wish they would do more of this instead of setting up a lobbying office across from the Capitol building and the other things they are doing to impact the people of this state.

If anyone was seeking proof positive that at least some conservatives have done a 180-degree spin from their core values of land and natural resource conservation, here it is. Republican president Abraham Lincoln, who set aside the first tract of federal land for park/conservation, would be proud. Republican president Theodore Roosevelt, who set aside lands for what are now most of our national parks, would also be proud. And Republican president Richard Nixon, who established the Environmental Protection Agency, would also be proud. Mark, how about working to preserve resources and develop new energy sources?

Great comment Elaine,

Churches and the private sector do a much better job helping out than the government. And if the government gave the private sector more incentive we would be better off

Yeah, let's attack our problems with bake sales.

Sam...exactly ruined what for whom?? Afraid you's in the minority, kiddo!! Walker will save Wisconsin just like Christie (working with a DEMOCRATIC legislature) is saving New Jersey!! Face the music Sam, the days of union/liberal corrupt control over OUR government are reaching their Armageddon. We are finally returning to gov't by the people and for the people - not by and for special interests!!! Praise to our Constitutiion!!

This is really a tired, old line. Unfortunately reality has to slap you in the face. Here's your breakdown of income taxes, coming straight from the good old federal government:

The top 50% of wage earners pay 96.4% of all income taxes. The top 25% pay 83.6% of all income taxes. The top 1%pay 33.7% of all income taxes. Oh, and bottom 50%? 3.6%.

How much is enough? The "rich" are already "sacrificing" disproportionately to the rest of society. And what is your definition of rich? Is it the top 50%? I think the top 50% contains a great deal of the middle class these days. These aren't rich people by any means. Yet you don't think they're sacrificing enough.

The left is trying mighty hard to devolve this budget deal into a war of classes. It's not. It's about getting our expenses in line with our revenues. You can't pit the middle class against the rich because in reality they're both in the same boat. The left doesn't want the middle class to wake up and realize this reality.

Lets see if we can explain it this way....if you get a Federal and a State refund...you DID NOT pay taxes!! If you ever noticed when doing taxes it says "the amount you OVERPAID" is your refund. Yes you pay social security, medicare, and whatever else it is but anything above that you get back in a REFUND!!!! So in fact you only pay your obligation...nothing more! Don't even get me started on property taxes!!!

one more thing craigles...that tax cut you say is happening...it is...it is going from $2,500 to $2,000 dollars. And tell me craigles...why should they get back MORE then they overpaid? How many other states even have a child tax credit How much extra do they need? You keep talking about the underprivileged in your remarks...why would you want to keep these people dependent on government programs...I for one would rather offer a hand up then a hand out!

Duane, sorry can you clarify your comment on not paying taxes/refund? If you receive a refund it just means you overpaid during the year, doesn't necessarily mean you paid no taxes. Although there was that kicker a few years back when we all got those refund checks to stimulate the economy and those that didn't pay a dime in taxes got checks too.

What do i need to explain??? It is very simple...refund= means the government gives you back everything you overpaid....sending a check means you haven't paid your share so pay up. The Federal government has a budget in which it is paid for from taxes collected. This does not include medicare or social security, those are separate monies collected to pay those obligations. So yes the government keeps a portion of everyones' taxes, but the rest is paid by the top 6% of money earners. Sorry it is just a fact, you can check it out on the IRS website if you wish. It is all there for you to look at.

Samantha, I am guessing your in your 20's by this response. Cutting education does not dumb down workers. Every Individual is given a opportunity to learn. Many do to broken families and lack of parental leadership throw this away. (Lack of the father in the black family) Illegal immagrants Drug families etc.
Many corportations today further train thier workers - Auto Industry, Computers, Trades etc.

Samatha here is the important fact the public schools never address. Religious schools do a better job with less money per student than the public schools and they dont complain and whine about everything.

Most of the parochial schools also do not have to accept ESL or special needs children, so the school does not have to deal with those particular challenges. Some of us do not want a religious curriculum for our children. My kids attend an excellent public school with excellent test scores (let's see some of the parochial school test scores . . . ) As a survivor of a Catholic school education, I personally would never, ever send my kids to a parochial school; but that is my choice, and I do not condemn others for their choices.

I won't get into your "lack of the father" comment, but you should really think before you say something so blatantly biased.

You forget, Mark, to add "in my opinion" to your posts. This is a country where people can make choices for themselves. And, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but broken families and immigrants are people too.

So, what religious school did you attend Mark?

Samantha, adjusting the cost of education to proper standards will not ruin education. Teachers will still have their jobs. They will still get pay raises. They will still get their 3.5 months off. But they will join the private sector and help pay for expensive retirement/health care costs that are creating budget issues at the state and local level. What's so objectionable about that?? Further, under the new legislation, school districts, for the first time in decades, have been given the authority to MANAGE their educational programs without the vicegrips control of the teachers unioins. This means for one, teachers can finally be compensated on the basis of performance, not seniority. Further, disciplinary action does not have to go through ten shades of arbitration, to be administered. Health care providers can not be selected, without WEAC demanding that the district use the WEAC Health Trust (what an egregious conflict of interest!!!) as provider. The list goes on and on. So again Sam.......what's the big problem here?? Take your blinders off. Tell me in a year if this new order in our educational system is working or not.......for ALL Wisconsinites!!

Mark I have to respond to your comments about private vs. public schools. A family member's child attending a MPS high school shadowed a friend in the same grade at a religious high school because they too thought the private education might be better. The MPS student shared that her public school English class assignment was to do a book report by creating a 25-question "test" with answer key. At the private school, students also had to do a book report; however, their assignment was to make a paper bag puppet representing a character in their chosen book and to talk about it in front of the class for a few minutes. The MPS student didn't transfer, saying "I don't need to go back to grade school."
Another relative attended a private religious college in Minnesota and tried to transfer to UW-Madison when the college closed her major with a one-semester notice. Surprise! Almost none of the credits earned at this nearly $30,000/year private school transferred over to the state system. So it was much more expensive, and took much longer to get a degree.
Moral of the story? Private schools are a crap shoot-some of them aren't even accredited by a national professional agency. So generalizing in this way can lead to very expensive mistakes.

Sam, your statement was that the "rich" weren't paying their fair share. I provided you evidence that they are indeed paying more than their fair share. They carry the largest tax burden of the population.

The world has changed dramatically and that change is accelerating. That change has winners and losers. It's a truly cold reality and I know one that isn't particularly pretty when you look at it through the eye of social justice. But in order for the US to continue to be a competitive nation we have to be pouring our money into items that make us more productive(research, and yes, corporations, universities, etc.). We have to balance that with social justice and taking care of our brothers that are less fortunate. We just cannot make it a blank check though. And it's always difficult to decide "how much". I serve up Johnson's "Great Society" as an epic fail and now we have multi-generational poverty. Indeed, pouring too much money into social justice issues has given us this result. Although there are items in this budget that make me uncomfortable, on the whole I feel it is the right balance of burden on the working citizens of the state and those that need the government's help. I am sure you disagree.

Mark, facts are facts, no matter how unpleasant. Judging by his actions as County Exec and now as Governor, Scott Walker seems to rush into things without considering the repercussions. He was told that the contract for the Blue Shirt project was already signed and that it would cost the County more if he cancelled it. He was told he didn't have the authority to fire public workers and with what result. Why would anyone think that his behavior would change as Governor? I don't believe that a person has to have a law degree to hold political office, but there has to be understanding and respect for the law. Scott should be working to build consensus, not fanning the flames of controversy.

And I do worry about the old, the sick, and children. How could anyone not be concerned that there are people in our community, state, and country who aren't getting enough to eat??? This is America, the bread basket of world! We should be able to feed our people!

235301
Talk about tired old arguments. I keep seeing this claim that the rich pay all the taxes. I doubt it's validity. I believe these stats are "Massaged" to tell what you want to here. Furthermore, I've heard it hundreds of times without an reference to who extablished this "fact". When GE pays "ZERO" I can't see how you stat can possibly be true.

Sorry Thurston, those statistics come straight from the federal government. I am sorry if this disrupts your view of the world.

I am stating facts on income tax. That is entirely separate from corporate taxes. Ooo, wait, Thurston sees an opening here, GE doesn't pay any corporate taxes so it must be that all corporations are evil and aren't paying their fair share. Uggh, sorry again Thurston. US corporate tax rates are 25-50% higher than most of the rest of the developed world.

thurston...ge didn't pay anything just like g.m. I guess that don't have anything to do with the fact that both are in bed with Obummer?

Sorry corporate apologists you are wrong. The effective rate -- what corporations actually pay when the loopholes are activated -- puts US corporate taxes much lower than that and lower than a number of European countries.

Sure, where do we start? Ending our dependence on foreign oil certainly has to be a priority. That will end all these nasty wars we have to start to protect our supply of oil. Turning our food(corn) into fuel has been a complete boondoggle orchestrated by ADM and others in the food industry. Let's get rid of that and turn our attention to companies that are actually creating sustainable, profitable technologies. Well we happen to have one of those great companies right here in Milwaukee-Johnson Controls. So folks interested in designing batteries, building batteries, controlling buildings in a green way all have opportunities here.

Water is the new oil...wars in the future will be fought over supplies of clean water. How wonderful, we happen to have one of the largest supplies of fresh water in the world sitting right in our back yard. And Milwaukee now is working to be a hub of water research. We have UWM establishing a new school specifically for that.

There are common threads here: a) it's government supporting the research of technology for companies that want to leverage those technologies for a profit(and thereby create good paying jobs), b) we aren't looking for the govt to create jobs, we're looking for the govt to help industry leverage technologies to create jobs and c) you need to have a decent education to have a job in these industries.

Those of us in industry in Milwaukee have been lamenting the brain drain that we experience here. We educate these bright kids that score amazingly on the SAT/ACT, go to great colleges(including our own amazing UW) and then they head off to Chicago, NY, LA, SF and other destinations other than Wisconsin. We have to foster our tech industry and leverage the education we are giving our kids. All that money we spend now is going to every other state's benefit but ours.

Most of the money being cut on education here in Wisconsin is coming out of the unions pockets, not out of the school programs or even the teachers pockets. The quality of education(outside of the city of Milwaukee) will continue to be outstanding even with our new budget. Let's work now on keeping those bright kids here in Wisconsin instead of shipping off to every other destination on the globe except for Wisconsin. Encouraging businesses to do business here and investing in research is a good start.

Conservatives have put out 100's ideas out. But when the President stops everything by executive order what do you want?

235301:

You stated: "Most of the money being cut on education here in Wisconsin is coming out of the unions pockets, not out of the school programs or even the teachers pockets."

????

$800 million from K-12 schools and another $250 million from the UW system, and "most of the money," out of this billion-plus, is coming out of the unions' pockets? Please explain.

You're very lucid with the facts on tax burdens, etc., so show me where I'm wrong. By my quick figuring, that's about 1/3 of the estimated $3 billion projected defecit being borne by education. It's your contention that most of this is coming from WEAC rather than out of teachers' pockets or program cuts? What am I missing?

The unstated reason for the brain drain is that companies here are real cheapskates when it comes to wages. Many college graduates get lured away by companies elsewhere paying real wages.

I know a corporate labor attorney who'd like to move back to Milwaukee, but he'd have to take a $40,000 cut.

And Badger, try people who'd want to go into teaching after what the Republicans have done to compensation. And yeah the money is part of it, but I know a number of teachers who are taking retirement because they are tired of the disrespect. Apparently the factor of a few tax dollars has got these wingers whacked out. But disrespect is pretty much what is on display on the Patch blogs by the right wing.

Thurston--
I cannot take anything you write seriously since you hide behind a moniker from "Gilligan's Island".
I am proud to post my opinions under my own name.
As a middle-class working man I am proud to support GOVERNOR SCOTT WALKER, for he is saving this state...one day at a time.

How right you are Keith. We don't know if that actually is Thurston Howell III posting and its even possible that "I am the Walrus"!

235301, I don't know a single professor making that kind of money. It's a matter of public record. You show me in the Wisconsin Red Book Where the 'average" prof. is $133K. You can't because it's not true. So that blows that talking point. You also have to keep in mind Professors had to spend a lot of time and a lot of money on their education. They have PhD, and while we may both may agree that doesn't guarantee brilliance or wisdom, it is a considerable investment of time and money. It should be rewarded. I thought we have a "free market" if there are such wonderful jobs in Milwaukee why are they being passed over by our bright grads? You Voodoo econonmists alway point to the invisible 3 fingered claw guiding "the Market" when it suit your needs. As far as the cost of education, I think that's something we can agree on. I believe a lot of it is driven by the perceived need to be at the forfront of technology. In my opinion, a good teacher with a chalk board is of more value. Another issue is that Exemplary Teaching is not rewarded financially. The system is set up so that if you want to move up financially, you must become an administrator and here's is where the Peter principle is glaringly appearent.
One other thing, why is it that people like you and Mainstreet are incapable of assigning value to anything unless it has a $ attached to it. When you reach the pearly gates be sure to tell St. Peter. " I sold a lot of widgets". I wonder how that's going to work for you?

Thurston, the $113k is right off the UW website. Google is your friend.

I am very much against unions or forced regulation of pay rates and the inability hire/fire at will. Unions are all about forced mediocrity. I am in complete agreement with you that we should financially reward our best educators. The problem is the union doesn't allow this; everyone is to be paid the same depending on how long they've worked the job. The young educator, doing a great job now, will be paid far less than the educator near retirement that is just coasting. This is why we want the unions out of the way. The union shouldn't be setting rules about pay rates or how we monitor performance and hire/fire. Tenure in the university system is the same kind of system. It unfortunately ends up protecting the bottom feeders instead of driving professors to perform at a high level.

And BTW, the comment about the moving up financially requiring going into admin: this issue isn't restricted to the education industry. All industries deal with this issue; if you want to climb the ladder you have to move into management. However, when we do this we take a great educator and put them in an admin role for which they aren't suited. Ultimately this is about educating kids, not providing admin jobs. So in the end the kids lose because a) we lost a great educator and b) we have a crummy admin now that isn't fulfilling their job duties.

You might be impressed with it but the professors making it are not. Notice that the other public schools in the Big Ten are not only ahead of the UW average, but way ahead and it will be worse thanks to Walker's budget. We are already starting to bleed competent professors, and whacko Open Record Requests by rabid Republicans isn't helping.

Because it makes some childishly feel good because they see it "getting back at liberal professors", this can only harm the direction of this state. The university has spawned a lot of successful businesses, as a visit to the west side of Madison would prove.

Don't apologize for your pseudomum Thurston. It's clear tweak of the wealth worshipers on this blog and these wingers can be vicious, as will be proved I am sure shortly.

About your comment on unions. They are the great equalizer and they protect the rights of working people. It is no accident that as union membership has been going down, so has the growth of the middle class while the American aristocracy has gotten obscenely wealthy. That I have no problem defining.

TH3, I have a high regard for teachers. My mother was a teacher and so is my sister ( not practicing though). But as you like to say facts are facts. There are way too many teachers compared to job openings, thus salaries are driven down. Why do you think the teachers union preachs the smaller class room nonsense? Makes more jobs and thus more union dues. I can't recall ever being in a classroom with less than 30 kids and in college you have auditoriums for classrooms.

Chuck, how does collective bargaining help the kids? And you are wrong...ALL State elected personal will be paying MORE....it is in the budget. Read it..I did..it is only 533 pages. Gov. Walker said he would NOT sign a bill that did not include this provision. So I think it is time for you to educate yourself and read the bill and make your own judgements...do not let the union leadership lie to you anymore.

Thurston, pleasse explain to me how teachers are being "screwed", by removing collective bargaining "rights". They still have their jobs, they still have their benefits, they still have their 3 and 1/2 months off, they still have their sick days. What do they need collective bargaining for?? As taxpayers, we pay these educators to get up in the morning, go to the classroom and educate our kids. And they make a decent buck doing so. So what do these professioinals need collective bargaining for?? Working conditions are fine. No child labor exploitation. No unreasonable working hours. Minimal supervision required. In fact, I fail to understand why white collar workers in both public and private sectors need collective bargaining. The workplace provides everything they need to succeed. Just show up and do your job, and enjoy the rewards of your profession. I'll bet alot of teachers welcome this new legislation - because deep down, they despise the unions and their lust for power and control. A truly "professional" teacher does not need the union to succeed in the field of education. They just need their commitment.

You got it Thurston. These fine folks would rather cry and moan over a few exceptions while corporations are swooping in to take over their "liberties."

Not so fast, Sam: the real story has not been corroborated yet. One thing for sure, there will be two sides to this event, and right now, the only thing bandied about by the media is strictly conjecture. It could turn out that Justice Bradley was the instigator of this conflict. So don't start celebrating Prosser's demise quite yet. More to come.

Well as usual the lefty jumps to conclusions...wait a second....breaking news.....guess what there were other people there, why NO phone call to 911, why no police report??? And lets not forget that this Justice is the same one that call 911 when Justice Prosser called the Chief Justice a "bitch".. yet no 911 call for being choked...really?? this doesn't pass the smell test to me!!

sammy lets ink numbers to the benefits now most of which are not available to me. Do you know we dont get your type of benefits I mean do you really understand that its not available to most of us. I mean be honest about this.

Mark/Samantha: it's the inherent nature of liberals to complain...when they don't get their way. They even complain when their monther-in-law cuts her visit short!! When they don't get their way, they get histrionic and go to Madison and trash the capitol...caring less what physical and financial damage they inflict - because their "cause" justifies such surly behavior. When conservatives in this state had to endure the corruption and oppressive Doyle regime for 8 years, did they react in such a manner?? Of course not. Conservatives aren't spoiled brats like their liberal counterparts. We work hard, pay our outrageous taxes and endure the exploitation of our government by the unions and their supporters. The difference is, conservatives take their issues to the voting poll, instead of trashing the capitol. We put people into office who understand good government can run...when the special interests are neutralized. And this notion that Walker and the Republicans are in the back pocket of big business - get real. Who do you think is the engine that provides jobs, markets, incomes and ultimately taxes?? You think gov't does this?? Gov't provides NOTHING tangible to our society - only moderately productive services, coupled with an overwhelming sense of entitlement!! It's time we privatize gov't!!!

Slavery? ahhhhh okay and how is slavery holding the black man down today not 100 years ago. I mean today. Where are blacks being held back now, other than lousy role models in the community. They are in the supreme court / President / ahhh you lost me buddy. The only person I blame my failures on today is myself.

Thurston oh my god. We dont fight the companies we get jobs from and make a living. Thats not what happens anymore in the real world. We interview for a job and they pay us to do the job. If we do a good job we might get a promotion or a raise. If we do a bad job we dont. and we may be fired. Thats how things work. Now buddy if I want a pension I fund that myself I have a SEP account. My boss does not match anything but he pays me to do my JOB. If I dont think I am getting paid enough from the company / evil corporation based in Mississippi I dont fight them. They were nice enough to start a company and hire me. Now this may sound strange to you but if I am not happy I go find another job from another company / evil corporation. I have done this over 6 times since graduation college. Make sense. they dont teach to you in school this way do they

Here you go:

http://apa.wisc.edu/FacultySalary/Faculty%20Salary%20Peer%20Comparison%202010-11.pdf

Notice in the document the push to bring those salaries higher in order to compete with peer institutions.

I bring the unions into the argument talking about the grade school and high school educators. That is what I am talking about with the ability to hire/fire and the unions. You seem to want to bend this off on a tangent against UW professors. I have nothing against UW professors and the money they make. I just want to point out that these professors fall into the group the left thinks is not paying enough in taxes. For the most part these people are one of the lefts own demographic and they are eating their own.

:) I know the world isn't a fair place, that's for sure. If you are going to make it in this unfair world you have to fight and scrap every day. The left is great at pointing out how low income folks have to work two jobs to make ends meet. What they don't want you to know is that the "rich", you know the upper 50% of income earners, are all working 60,70,80,90 hr work weeks in their jobs. Most of us are working the equivalent of two jobs. And our spouse is likely doing the same. Life isn't fair. Learn the rules and leverage them to your advantage. Don't sit around whining and crying about what is and isn't fair.

@235301 -- It's one thing if you're self-employed and working extra hours for extra gain. But when you're a salaried worker for a corporation, working 80 hours a week for the same pay as if you were working 40, you're feeding a system that kills jobs. That extra 40 hours you give the company to show you're a good worker and a go-getter is another white-collar professional job that no longer exists.

Frankly, if you and the spouse are doing it, you're doing it out of the implied threat that if you don't, there is always someone else who will.

Randy, there are a lot of reasons we work those hours. But it isn't because of threat that someone else will take our jobs. Your argument is the old tired argument against improving productivity and that it destroys jobs. Basically you think there is something unethical for me to work more/harder because it costs someone else a job? I can remember once my wife coming home from work and commenting that one of her coworkers told her "she works too hard and makes the rest of them look bad". I threw up in my mouth a little thinking an American would express that sentiment.

No, 235301, I think it's unethical for your employers to set up a system like that, which does put people out of jobs and overwork the remainder, and then complain about the taxes on their profits.

Sam, help me out here and give us your definition of the "top". What's your cutoff salary range where you feel those people aren't paying their fair share and hoarding all the gold as it were. We're vaguely throwing around terms of the "top" and "rich" and I want to see what the left is thinking. I am certainly not rich and I have had some years where 50+ cents of every dollar I made went to the govt. How much more do you want to squeeze out of me? How much is enough? To the point where all of my hard work and education didn't gain me a dollar more than the guy who blew off school and is now collecting unemployment?

Let's be frank, the left wants a redistribution of wealth, as long it isn't their wealth that is being redistributed.

Well we could all put on our little grey smocks and work at the broom factory too but this is the USA. Some jobs require you to put that many hours to do the job correctly. The aren't hourly, they're salary. You do what you have to do to complete the job, or you don't have a job!

Sam, how old are you? The jobs are in finance /Banking/sales/ Marketing/ Medical / Accounting/ Law/ and here is the big one -- small business -- Is one Rich that makes 50 thousand a year working 40 hours aweek as Rich as someone that makes 100 and work 80 hours a week ..

Why would one not want to make more money to buy more and live a better life. The person who is not seeing a higher paying job is either not looking hard enough, not willing to relocate, or not qualified. Many start their own business in construction, Bars and restraunts, Auto repair, oil change / franchises, You name it its out there. To survive you need to innovate. If you want different out- comes you need to make changes in your approach. Im worried about you Sam. You sound nice but seem to be asking somebody else to do with less and give you the rest? You want part of the whole of others around you. Thats socialism / communisim

Mark........trying to talk to a liberal point of view (ie, Sam, Samantha) is futile. Like little Muslim children indoctrinated by their religious leaders to hate the Western civilization, liberals have cultivated "anti-Americal" sentiment and cannot seem to comprehend ANY good in the capitalistic system of economics in this country. All liberals do is cry about how unfair our society is. How the rich have everything and don't want to share it. It's a desperate and unrealistic ideology...which, unfortunately, too many once decent Americans have succumbed to. You will never convince Sam or Samantha of the critical good the private sector (which, by the way, is mostly small to medium sized businesses.......not all fat cats like the Left portrays) does for this country....and the immeasurable damage unions have done to this sector the last 50 years!!

Sam, still waiting on your definition of "rich". Is it just someone that makes more than you?

As Mark stated, those jobs are in banking, marketing, engineering, medicine, financials....those people all have made great sacrifices to reach their station in life. Great sacrifices to get the education they needed(many needing post-graduate work) and now in their career they sacrifice again, working long hours and likely needing to change disciplines 3,4+ times in their career. There has to be a reward for all that hard work. The left wants to take away that reward. Guess what happens when that reward disappears? Then no one goes to that effort and we turn into a third world country.

The days are long gone where you could get a high school degree and go to work for GM or US Steel and make $30/hr. Not everyone has to go to college to make it though....Bucyrus is currently walking over broken glass to find good welders.

"Well we could all put on our little grey smocks and work at the broom factory too but this is the USA."

Expecting salaried middle management employees to put in 60 to 80 hours a week for their salary is like the owner of the broom factory hiring broom makers at $350 per week, telling them their quota is 2000 brooms per week when it takes a skilled worker 80 hours to make that many, and then telling them they have to stay until they've produced their 2000 brooms. All to avoid hiring extra workers.

SAM and I are just old enough to remember a time when Americans didn't think that kind of thing was fair.

Sam
I feel bad for you and wish you the best. I however disagree with you. Unemployment is lower in Wisconsin than other states and we seem to be moving in the right direction. Money is tight and the last thing we need to do is make it worst by giving more of it to Uncle Sam. Unions have hurt Harley, Mercury and others forcing the hand. Many businesses left under Doyle. He voted for mandatory pay for sick days. He wanted more regulation, We need to abolish things like auto exhaust testing and forcing people with little money to pay to make a car operate at govt standards. We need to offer tax credits to first time home owners. We need to offer credits to new car buyers. We need to limit law suits against business. It will come back look at Texas now with about 4% unemployment

Bren. here's what we agree on: we live in the best democracy in the world. Aside from that, I stand by my statement that unions provide NOTHING for taxpayers, and that government can operate without them, and still provide the services we are anteing up our tax dollars for. Gov't wages and benefits can be set much the same as in private sector markets. A certain job is rewarded with a commensurate salary and benefits, based on what credentials the employee brings to the position. Don't like your comp or your boss?? Get another job!! That's what the average joe like me does in the private sector. Seems to work OK.

All collective bargaining does is jack up the cost of government - and that is why school districts, municipalities, states and the federal government are shouldering an unimaginable current liability for future obligations. It's not due to a lack of revenue. It's due to the exponentially escalating cost of post retirement benefits, health care and wages the last three decades. Regarding Wisconsin, the STATE pension liability is fully funded at present....but not all municipalities and school districts are so fortunate (ie MPS, Milw County). And don't forget...whilst private sector folks like me, who fund their own retirement, have taken huge hits to our IRA's and 401k's the last 3 years, public sector retirees have their pension guarantees intact, regardless of how much their pension fund has fluctuated during this economic malaise. Cheers!!

Mr. Marshall:

",,,this is democracy at work..."

What happened to the complaint of those on the Left who " criticise Gov Walker for not showing his hand in his campaign." I believe you suggested that they "get a life."

You've conceded, and try to justify, that Walker duped the voters in a campaign, (when showing that hand might well have cost him a win), then you practically boast that he and the GOP recall targets in the state senate used the budget proecess in a way they said it shouldn't be abused.

This is democracy at work?

John, you might benefit by reading about the history of unions in this country. Unions were created because of exploitative employers.
Concerning "democracy at work," the right to protest peacefully is democracy at work, just as it was for the "mushroom" Americans to sat at home and complained about Doyle as he struggled to set right years of fiscal irresponsibility under Thompson (thanks again for lifting Wisconsin's 18% credit card interest cap, Tommy!). But laziness has its part to play in American politics and the special interest groups and billionaires know how to take full advantage.
The reason so many people are upset with Walker might be because he ran a legitimate campaign then turned around and immediately started working on the Koch brothers mandate for new Republican governors instead. Not putting Wisconsin first.
John, I really don't expect you to understand or appreciate my statements, but share for others who care to read them. I speak out against the actions of certain politicians and other self-serving individuals but I would never insult our form of government as you have done.

The big difference is that in the public sector, there is no profit motivation for an employer (the government) to be 'self serving' or 'exploitive'. There is nothing to be gained personally by turning public school teachers into sweatshop laborers.

It also should be noted that the exploitive employers that we had back in the 'pre-union olden days' had a large percentage of unskilled, uneducated, immigrant workers. By their nature, their employment options were very limited. We also didn't have OSHA to set standards for workplace safety. The conditions that brought unions into existence aren't nearly as common anymore and probably don't apply at all within the public sector.

Bern, time to sign off on this dialogue. Neither of us will convince the other that our viewpoint is the "right" or "best" one. But the fact that we can converse like this in a non-threatening manner only continues to reinforce the greatness of the free society we live in. Good luck in your life's pursuits.

Dan BV: Republicans don't go around trying to recall public officials, just because they don't like their politics. We reserve this right on voting day. We believe that recalls are for public officials who have demonstrated some form of inappropriate conduct while serving in office. Recalling officials because you don't like the way they legislate and vote is not what this venue was construed for by our legislature. So telling me I could have recalled Doyle is disingenuous on your part. And the current spate of recalls facing Wisconsinites denigrates the meaning and intent of this law. You have ample time to make official your complaint with your gov't representatives next time they are up for re-election. All recalls do is distract the public officials involved from doing the work they were elected to do. And thanks for citing the fact that I am "modeling Republican behavior". I'm sure you have just befriended the entire Republican population in this state. And you sir, quite ostensibly reflect the values of a true Democrat!! My compliments!!

Good gravy, Mr. Marshall. I think we're actually on the verge of good spirited, thoughful debate - True Republican versus True Democrat. See what all starts with a kind word and a compliment?
Just assure me you're not a Tea Party, Bachmann supporting, Palin book buying type... Please?
I never thought I'd ache for a good debate with a traditional Republican before. My biggest fault is raising my own rhetoric to match the incendiary soundbite logic of the extreme right. It's strange to think we want to think this country is founded on ideals, when in actuality, our strength has always been in practical, rational compromises.

I do miss George Webb's - I now live in what you'd consider TimBukFive or TimBukSix. So is your name John Marshall, or are you taking the name of your high school and the famed court justice? If so, I should change my name to Alexander Hamilton.

Hudson is geographically in Wisconsin, but in the Twin Cities TV market. Most of the town thinks Jesse Ventura was once our governor and couldn't tell you who Tommy Thompson was. Even worse - my neighbors are Vikings fans.